I wouldn’t call it a hate movement; it’s too inward-focused.
But like with any ultranationalist movement, it’s definitely heavily leveraged by those wanting to use it for their own hate-driven agenda. The two go hand in hand, but aren’t quite the same thing — dealing with each needs a slightly different approach, and getting rid of one won’t get rid of the other. THIS is the reason not to just label the entire zionist movement as hate/intolerance-driven Jewish supremacy. It’s only the diving board. Take it away and they’ll find something else.
Nationalism (no, not “ultranationalism”) is fundamentally hateful in its arbitrary assignment of an idealized group of people with a natural right to land. Zionism has been oriented around Palestinian dispossession and erasure since its emergence in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries, there is no “inward-focused” element here that somehow doesn’t make it an international ideological movement in Canada (which is also a genocidal, settler-colonial state with an interest in protecting Israel’s right to commit genocide). There aren’t any especially naughty Zionists that make the movement look bad, it is fundamentally a genocidal endeavour the same way every settler-colonial state is.
I really hope you have at least one reading on any of these topics to recommend since you’re making some pretty incredible claims here that defy most historical and decolonial scholarship on them.
I disagree with your framing because it makes it seem like Zionism isn’t inherently hateful, just some people coopting the ideology are.
But the very founders and people that created the ideology were hateful, as a matter of fact.
You’re framing an ethno-supremacist ideology that was created at the same time that other very hateful ethno-supremacist ideologies were created and trying to say it isn’t inherently hateful.
That’s like saying Naziism wasn’t inherently hateful, but people coopted the ideology. They’re literally of the same cloth, friend.
You’re framing an ethno-supremacist ideology that was created at the same time that other very hateful ethno-supremacist ideologies were created and trying to say it isn’t inherently hateful.
That’s exactly why I’m comparing it with every other balkan nationalism of the time. Take Greek or Bulgarian or Italian or Hungrian or Turkish or any other nationalism that was being conceived in, well, the age of nationalism, in the end of the 19th century, and they all share the same ethno-supremacist characteristics.
That’s usually what ethnonationalism means in the New World, where there are things like white nationalism etc. In the Old World, ethno-nationalism is a diverse set of ideologies. And the idea of “blood purity” is also not expressed as that radical or controversial in the many many states that follow a jus sanguinis system.
There is absolutely there a structure that makes it extremely easy to slide into hateful politics. Which is why I’m not defending ethno-nationalism, in fact I agree that it is an aberration that should be abolished. I am just pointing out that there is nothing particularly unique about jewish ethno-nationalism. It is currently undergoing a radical phase, but again that’s not historically unique to it. That’s literally how the Turks ended up genociding the Armenians. I am not normalizing or excusing, merely de-exceptionalizing. Nothing special about zionism. Just another shitty ethno-nationalism, same shit we’ve seen many times over.
Sorry, I also didn’t know I was responding to someone different in my prior comment and think we’re in agreement. There’s nothing inherently unique about Jewish ethno-nationalism.
I kind of agree. I don’t think Zionism is that much different from any other shitty nationalism, and I’m saying this from the point of view of the Balkans. Like the Zionist Jews are not doing anything particularly new that, say, the Croatian Ustasha, or the Serb Chetniks, or the Kemalist Turks, or the Bulgarian fascists, or our own nationalist Greeks, etc didn’t already do at some point in the last century or so. Even the settler aspect is not that unique, just look into how us Greeks colonized and cleansed Macedonia or what the Turks did to us and the Armenians and in northern Cyprus. The only difference is that they also have nukes, and a blank check from the Americans to do whatever the fuck they want.
I wouldn’t call it a hate movement; it’s too inward-focused.
But like with any ultranationalist movement, it’s definitely heavily leveraged by those wanting to use it for their own hate-driven agenda. The two go hand in hand, but aren’t quite the same thing — dealing with each needs a slightly different approach, and getting rid of one won’t get rid of the other. THIS is the reason not to just label the entire zionist movement as hate/intolerance-driven Jewish supremacy. It’s only the diving board. Take it away and they’ll find something else.
Nationalism (no, not “ultranationalism”) is fundamentally hateful in its arbitrary assignment of an idealized group of people with a natural right to land. Zionism has been oriented around Palestinian dispossession and erasure since its emergence in the late-nineteenth and early-twentieth centuries, there is no “inward-focused” element here that somehow doesn’t make it an international ideological movement in Canada (which is also a genocidal, settler-colonial state with an interest in protecting Israel’s right to commit genocide). There aren’t any especially naughty Zionists that make the movement look bad, it is fundamentally a genocidal endeavour the same way every settler-colonial state is.
I really hope you have at least one reading on any of these topics to recommend since you’re making some pretty incredible claims here that defy most historical and decolonial scholarship on them.
therefore, white supremacists aren’t a hate group, as they are focused on white people…
You should probably read a few lines from Jabotinsky (a popular Zionist Nationalist). He uses blood and land tropes a lot.
I’ve read just enough to not want to ever read anything by the guy again. As I said, the two go hand in hand, and he’s a prime example of that.
I disagree with your framing because it makes it seem like Zionism isn’t inherently hateful, just some people coopting the ideology are.
But the very founders and people that created the ideology were hateful, as a matter of fact.
You’re framing an ethno-supremacist ideology that was created at the same time that other very hateful ethno-supremacist ideologies were created and trying to say it isn’t inherently hateful.
That’s like saying Naziism wasn’t inherently hateful, but people coopted the ideology. They’re literally of the same cloth, friend.
That’s exactly why I’m comparing it with every other balkan nationalism of the time. Take Greek or Bulgarian or Italian or Hungrian or Turkish or any other nationalism that was being conceived in, well, the age of nationalism, in the end of the 19th century, and they all share the same ethno-supremacist characteristics.
Xenophobia is hateful. Ethno-nationalism is xenophobic and about blood purity.
That’s usually what ethnonationalism means in the New World, where there are things like white nationalism etc. In the Old World, ethno-nationalism is a diverse set of ideologies. And the idea of “blood purity” is also not expressed as that radical or controversial in the many many states that follow a jus sanguinis system.
There is absolutely there a structure that makes it extremely easy to slide into hateful politics. Which is why I’m not defending ethno-nationalism, in fact I agree that it is an aberration that should be abolished. I am just pointing out that there is nothing particularly unique about jewish ethno-nationalism. It is currently undergoing a radical phase, but again that’s not historically unique to it. That’s literally how the Turks ended up genociding the Armenians. I am not normalizing or excusing, merely de-exceptionalizing. Nothing special about zionism. Just another shitty ethno-nationalism, same shit we’ve seen many times over.
Sorry, I also didn’t know I was responding to someone different in my prior comment and think we’re in agreement. There’s nothing inherently unique about Jewish ethno-nationalism.
I kind of agree. I don’t think Zionism is that much different from any other shitty nationalism, and I’m saying this from the point of view of the Balkans. Like the Zionist Jews are not doing anything particularly new that, say, the Croatian Ustasha, or the Serb Chetniks, or the Kemalist Turks, or the Bulgarian fascists, or our own nationalist Greeks, etc didn’t already do at some point in the last century or so. Even the settler aspect is not that unique, just look into how us Greeks colonized and cleansed Macedonia or what the Turks did to us and the Armenians and in northern Cyprus. The only difference is that they also have nukes, and a blank check from the Americans to do whatever the fuck they want.