Hey all, I recently left reddit like many of you. I have a question regarding lemmy and the fediverse on the history of banning and defederation. I have noticed several posts calling for varying communities to be disconnected. were these removal requests as prevalent before the mass migration? Usually I am all for communities existsting in their own spaces, barring illegal content. I am hoping that the new users are coming here with the intent to learn how this community works, before we try to remake the community we just left.
Let’s not sugar-coat this: do not tolerate fascists and bigots in your spaces. Period.
I agree 100%
If you want to tolerate Nazis, bigots, fascists, etc under the guise of “free speech” then this is not the instance for you. And I hope we maintain that moving forward. Y’all can have your own hellhole somewhere else
This.
A clear-cut and uncontroversial rule that will see little to no opposition, yes.
And in many cases it’s also clear-cut and uncontroversial whether someone is a fascist or a bigot.
But in other cases, you’re going to run into trouble. A particular case in point; I don’t like the Disney Star Wars sequel trilogy. I have, in the past, been immediately called a sexist when I’ve mentioned that fact. But I personally don’t care one whit about the gender of the trilogy’s protagonist, I just think they’re bad movies. Maybe there are other people who actually do care and that’s the reason they don’t like those movies. Maybe there are people who don’t believe me when I say I personally don’t care about the gender of the trilogy’s protagonist. So, is https://reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait/ a bigoted community? If there was a Fediverse equivalent, should it be blocked? Different people will argue different ways.
I can think of lots of other scenarios, I won’t make a big rambling list because I’m sure I’ll step on a landmine eventually. I’m just arguing that seemingly simple straightforward “rules” that are easy to agree with can still end up mired in complexity when people try to implement them in the real world.
I don’t feel like there is as much gray area here as you’re making it out to be. There is a big difference between
“The new star wars movies are bad cause they are WOKE!1!1!1!1!1 Women are bad!”
vs
“The new star wars movies were an incohesive mess due to changes between writers and directors for all 3 films”
But also it’s not like we will be defederating whenever people get in a slap fight, people are still going to have shitty opinions on any instance and get downvoted for that. This is for a pattern of behavior being tolerated and prolific.
The whole reason /r/saltierthancrait exists is because the folks at /r/starwars largely refused to make that distinction. It could be that “misogynist” was simply a convenient weapon to bludgeon the people who disagreed with their taste in movies and they didn’t genuinely believe that everyone who disliked those movies were misogynist, but the weapon was deployed nonetheless and resulted in a schism.
These words are just too convenient sometimes.
Yeah I have no doubt someone called him a sexist for not liking the new SW, but from what I’ve seen across communities online 99% of people are easily able to distinguish between someone critiquing films over being a misogynist. And there was def rampant misogyny in some places when they got released.
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That’s a valid concern, but in “fuzzy” cases like that, I think we can trust the mods. They’ve shown good judgment so far.
That’s a bad faith argument they used against you for having a good opinion that they disagree with. In my personal head cannon I ignore the prequels and sequels because they cheapen the original plot. Rogue One I’ll take though.
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I’m a fan of the Machete Order, which salvages two of the three prequels. The prequels weren’t good, but the story was reasonably sound at least and inserting them between Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi actually does some nice improvements to the overall pacing IMO.
“No nazis or bigots” is a nice slogan, but if people turn off our brains and turn off our humanity and just start mindlessly chanting slogans that justify the punishing of our enemies, then there’s no difference between us and the typical German in 1938.
It doesn’t take a lot to end up in a bad place if we think we’re purely good and in the right and our enemy is purely evil.
lmao fuck off. Tolerating nazis leads to more nazis. The only way to get rid of them is to stomp them out.
Are you familiar with the Salem witch trials, the werewolf trials in France in the 1500s and 1600s and the Satanic Panic of the late 80s and early 90s? Those people thought they were morally justified in anything they did against the accused because they were fighting against literal Satan.
World War 2 ended 75 years ago. Virtually everyone who was a Nazi is dead of old age.
So who are you stomping?
lol you are delusional if you think Nazi ideology is dead.
There are plenty of white supremacist fascists out there. People often call them nazis because we don’t give a shit about splitting hairs regarding if they are a member of the actual Nazi party or if they’re just closely related scum.
also funny that you only bring up horseshit things as your dodge with witches, werewolves and Satan, you know all not real, but Nazis and bigots are real so it seem a weird comparison
We’re not talking about punishing anyone, we just don’t want to hear or see their bigotry. They can have their space and we can choose not to interact with them.
That’s a fair point.
Ya we should have thought harder about who the bad guys REALLY were in WW2
FFS
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There is a really, really big difference between “we want to kill you” and “we do not want to be killed by you”.
Don’t tolerate fascists. However comfortable that centrist illusion is, you are signing your own death warrant and that of millions of others (most of whom will suffer the consequences of your actions long before they get around to the people who feel safe enough to argue that fascists must be tolerated).
You have some really stupid ideas, but this one takes the cake. And the one where you think Nazi ideology is dead because you haven’t seen anyone wearing a swastika.
If you find the idea that mindlessly chanting slogans to justify punishing your enemies wrong so offensive, go ahead and keep chanting. There’s certainly nothing I can do to stop you.
The reason the world wars and the holocaust were so traumatic to western civilization wasn’t that nobody thought humans were capable of such barbarity (We had plenty of horrors throughout history that western civilization was perfectly aware of), it’s because everyone thought enlightened western civilization with its liberalism and enlightenment and Christianity wasn’t capable of such barbarity. Then we had a huge wake-up call.
I get pushback from both sides of the political spectrum at the idea that we need to remain cognizant and critical of our own actions even if we think we’re fighting a dangerous enemy.
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Very well said.
The concern you raised cannot be overstated. Accusing someone of bigotry or hate because their opinions of a subject are different has become a common invalidation and attack strategy. Another example is the Little Mermaid movie. By most accounts it’s just not a very good movie. But you’ll likely be called a racist by certain groups if you state that you don’t like it. I haven’t seen it. I don’t have an opinion on it. But I witnessed the resulting arguments unfold across the internet. It is okay to dislike works created by or starring POC. It is not okay to dislike them because they were created by or star POC. Some people seem to find it impossible to differentiate between the two.
Perhaps different life experiences. In many cases nothing is really clear-cut when it comes to people and their opinions. People who believe “they figured it out” inadvertently become totalitarians.
The bulk of my comment was all about the “but in other cases…” stuff.
PERIOD
💯
And not to be “reddit” about it, but many of those hateful subreddit communities are very familiar with the concept of having multiple accounts and compartmentalized identities. They often explicitly advise each other to have one account for the hateful subreddits and another account for the rest of non-hateful reddit.
All they are asked to do is… exactly the same duplicitous thing they’ve done forever on reddit. Problem: solved. If they can’t even manage to pull off that charade…
we should defederate from kbin for hosting fascists and bigots
Satire doesn’t work as well on fedi when everybody has to check what instance they’re on AND what instance you’re posting from to figure out if you’re serious