Not in the trolley scenario you don’t. But in the situation it represents, how do you, personally, plan to “burn the trolley and rip up the tracks” before November?
what does this have to do with criticizing a sitting president?
Fomenting electoral apathy in the conscientious portion of the population just before a close election empowers the candidate preferred by the non-conscientious portion of the population. I’m all for criticisms, but leftist infighting, and refusing to “big-tent” with neo-liberals in election years, only benefits the right.
The opposition learned how to play the game and move things incrementally towards their goals. Letting idealism obstruct pragmatism is only making things worse, even when your ideals are right. Play the game or lose.
So what you’re saying is we have a terrible undemocratic system that was founded on the ideals of oppression and genocide, and that there’s no hope of fixing it. Got it.
Never said that, but smugly refusing to participate because it’s flawed is not an effective path toward fixing it. Conservatives have been gutting civil liberties by patiently toeing the line and playing by the rules of the game to develop their position over decades. Progressives have been splitting vote (or just straight up not voting) because they let their ideals prevent them from compromising on winning strategies.
Ideals and principles are great guiding stars to aim toward, and I desperately hope to live to see fully automated luxury gay space communism, but refusing to vote for the lesser evil isn’t getting us any closer. It’s just bringing us closer to an actualfascist United States.
Who’s “smugly refusing” though? I’m bristling at the suggestion that a sitting president should be immune from criticism, especially one who is ACTIVELY supporting genocide!
an actual fascist United States.
I’ve got bad news for you about us. We’re already a fascist state. Yes, it can get worse, but just the existence of agencies like ICE and our entire fucked up history paints a grim picture of what we are.
So if you’re telling me my only choices are either a genocidal maniac or a slightly less genocidal maniac, then I’ll tell you we do not have a democracy. That is NOT a democracy that you’re describing. You admit this, right?
I don’t find a system that provides me with only two choices – one being a candidate who actively persecutes immigrants and Native people and denies people basic rights like housing and healthcare while sending arms to genocidal regimes, and the other being the same but also wanting to establish a theotratic autocracy – to fall within the acceptable range. I’d probably not listen to anyone who finds this situation remotely acceptable.
Lol okay, but this so-called “why should I vote” brigade is STILL not here. Sounds like a strawman to me, because zero 1 (one) users in this thread are saying not to vote.
Update: One user referenced not voting as a strategy to affect change, but then said that now is not the time for such a strategy
I did, sorry. But it has to be done in big enough numbers, which would not be possible right now. So, vote and start organizing for the next elections.
I made that comment before you showed up, though. I think there is an argument to be made not to vote, but I agree that now isn’t the time.
Regardless, that’s not what this post was about, but conservative and centrist Democrats will literally argue against anything except the points I’m trying to make, because they know that it is accurate to criticize our sitting president of multiple atrocities, including supporting a genocidal regime.
It’s appalling that any criticism leveled at an actual sitting president gets summarily dismissed by so many people. Sometimes interacting with such people genuinely makes me feel like not voting, because what even is the point, if we can’t so much as pressure our sitting president to do better? It’s absurd to me.
I can literally admit that I intend to vote for Biden, but that doesn’t matter. These people demand COMPLETE dedication to their sports team party, including holding any party member immune from criticism. Their “lesser of two evils” schtick is wearing thin. I’ve been around since the 80s, and it’s been the same routine my whole life.
Not in the trolley scenario you don’t. But in the situation it represents, how do you, personally, plan to “burn the trolley and rip up the tracks” before November?
Fomenting electoral apathy in the conscientious portion of the population just before a close election empowers the candidate preferred by the non-conscientious portion of the population. I’m all for criticisms, but leftist infighting, and refusing to “big-tent” with neo-liberals in election years, only benefits the right.
The opposition learned how to play the game and move things incrementally towards their goals. Letting idealism obstruct pragmatism is only making things worse, even when your ideals are right. Play the game or lose.
So what you’re saying is we have a terrible undemocratic system that was founded on the ideals of oppression and genocide, and that there’s no hope of fixing it. Got it.
Fuck the fascist United States.
Never said that, but smugly refusing to participate because it’s flawed is not an effective path toward fixing it. Conservatives have been gutting civil liberties by patiently toeing the line and playing by the rules of the game to develop their position over decades. Progressives have been splitting vote (or just straight up not voting) because they let their ideals prevent them from compromising on winning strategies.
Ideals and principles are great guiding stars to aim toward, and I desperately hope to live to see fully automated luxury gay space communism, but refusing to vote for the lesser evil isn’t getting us any closer. It’s just bringing us closer to an actual fascist United States.
Who’s “smugly refusing” though? I’m bristling at the suggestion that a sitting president should be immune from criticism, especially one who is ACTIVELY supporting genocide!
I’ve got bad news for you about us. We’re already a fascist state. Yes, it can get worse, but just the existence of agencies like ICE and our entire fucked up history paints a grim picture of what we are.
So if you’re telling me my only choices are either a genocidal maniac or a slightly less genocidal maniac, then I’ll tell you we do not have a democracy. That is NOT a democracy that you’re describing. You admit this, right?
Only incredibly privileged or naive people are able to view this system as ‘flawed’. It works perfectly.
Every system is flawed. Some flaws are within acceptable tolerances. “Acceptable” is a largely subjective measure.
I don’t find a system that provides me with only two choices – one being a candidate who actively persecutes immigrants and Native people and denies people basic rights like housing and healthcare while sending arms to genocidal regimes, and the other being the same but also wanting to establish a theotratic autocracy – to fall within the acceptable range. I’d probably not listen to anyone who finds this situation remotely acceptable.
The “why should I vote” brigade are just making excuses for their laziness. Slacktivism is not a benefit to society like they think.
Show me where they are in this thread. They’re not here.
That sounds like someone talking to the police.
Lol okay, but this so-called “why should I vote” brigade is STILL not here. Sounds like a strawman to me, because
zero1 (one) users in this thread are saying not to vote.Update: One user referenced not voting as a strategy to affect change, but then said that now is not the time for such a strategy
I did, sorry. But it has to be done in big enough numbers, which would not be possible right now. So, vote and start organizing for the next elections.
I made that comment before you showed up, though. I think there is an argument to be made not to vote, but I agree that now isn’t the time.
Regardless, that’s not what this post was about, but conservative and centrist Democrats will literally argue against anything except the points I’m trying to make, because they know that it is accurate to criticize our sitting president of multiple atrocities, including supporting a genocidal regime.
It’s appalling that any criticism leveled at an actual sitting president gets summarily dismissed by so many people. Sometimes interacting with such people genuinely makes me feel like not voting, because what even is the point, if we can’t so much as pressure our sitting president to do better? It’s absurd to me.
I can literally admit that I intend to vote for Biden, but that doesn’t matter. These people demand COMPLETE dedication to their
sports teamparty, including holding any party member immune from criticism. Their “lesser of two evils” schtick is wearing thin. I’ve been around since the 80s, and it’s been the same routine my whole life.