• rubpoll [she/her]@hexbear.net
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      1 year ago

      This is like if the Confederacy retreated to Catalina Island, massacred everyone there, and continued calling itself the rightful government of the entire continent afterward.

      • randint@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        This is not like that. The ROC government did not “massacre everyone there.” It did call itself the rightful government of the entire China for several decades, but it has since then moved on.

    • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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      1 year ago

      Man, these days you know a hexbear without even looking at the user.

      I mean this is complete baloney! You are also using the comparison to establish some kind of “evil slavers vs democracy” narrative that wasn’t in place at all in China during the warlord era. They were all equally horrid.

      This is, at best, akin to a war between all states in the US after the Boston Tea Party and a communist state, let’s just pick Arizona, slowly winning the wars and forcing the remaining faction onto Hawaii. Then the socialist party forced anyone who could read, more or less, to work themselves to death in a field in the name of communism. Glory to the people!!!

        • sunbeam60@lemmy.one
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          1 year ago

          I agree my characterisation is far off the mark. But the poster I responded to wasn’t even in the same galaxy, so I still considered it an improvement.

          Also, I’m not Jesus Christ 🤪

            • randint@lemm.ee
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              1 year ago

              They did not say that they don’t know shit about the topic, not even close. They simply said their characterization is far off the marks. That means that their understanding of the conflict is far from perfect, but they absolutely do know shit about it.

              • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                They didn’t say they were wrong

                They just said they were far off the mark

                That means their understanding is far from perfect

                They absolutely do know their shit

                  • AntiOutsideAktion [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                    1 year ago

                    far off the mark

                    Can it be time for you to shut up yet?

                    To think that you saw me make fun of you for the game of telephone you played with yourself and decided to take the final translation and defend yourself with it. Way to miss the fucking point. “Far from the mark” was already cope by someone who was simply fucking wrong about what they said.

      • randint@lemm.ee
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        1 year ago

        I agree. People should take how the Chinese government and the US government treat their people into consideration.

        • Commiejones [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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          1 year ago

          So are we gonna talk about how USA has the highest incarceration rate in the world? Are we going to talk about income equality in USA vs China? Are we going to talk about the Concentration camps for refugee children on the USA border? (If you are going to bring up Xinjiang I’m going to need some photographic evidence beyond vibes and zenz doing bad statistical analysis)

          • randint@lemm.ee
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            1 year ago

            What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is? Do you really believe that the income is more equal in China? If you are going to talk about the “concentration camps” on the USA border I’m going to need photo evidence too. Here is a photo of the camp in Xinjiang:

            ::: spoiler :::

            No, this photo is not fake.

            • Commiejones [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              What does incarceration rate have to do with how good the country is?

              not “how good it is” “How it treats its people” America locks up its people way more (531/100k) than other China (119/100k). Is imprisoning people treating them well?

              Kids in cages. There’s some photo’s there and I think you’ll probably respect WaPo as a source.

              removed externally hosted image

              You can try again but I’m gonna guess that it is just a picture of a building or some prisoners with no context on how many people are there or why they are there.

              • randint@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                I apologize for saying “how good it is.” I was in a rush and couldn’t think of a better phrase.

                I just read through the article from the Washington Post you linked. That really is bad and I believe that the Trump government should not have treated the (although illegal) immigrants. The grim appearance of that facility really isn’t something that the immigrants should have faced when they set foot on the US. However, compare that to the situation in Xinjiang. Here is an opinion post from the Washington Post. What China is doing to its Uyghurs is genocide. Not that it justifies anything that the US have done to its immigrants, but in comparison what the US is doing seem pretty mild.

                • carl_marks_1312 [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  No offence but your lack of media literacy is showing…

                  You understand that using WaPo as a source for American wrong doings is not the same as using WaPo as a source for wrong doings it’s geopolitical rival. You’d need a Chinese outlet admitting to their faults for it to be equivalent…

                  Nonetheless I clicked on your link:

                  The disclosure comes in an investigative report from the Associated Press and a new research report by scholar Adrian Zenz for the Jamestown Foundation.

                  Literally the second paragraph…

                  • randint@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    I hope I don’t sound rude but it really sounds like you only consider WaPo trustworthy when it’s convenient for you. Besides, the media in China are heavily controlled by the government. I don’t think a news outlet would survive if they dared to report such things.

                    Literally the second paragraph…

                    Sorry, I don’t understand how that makes this any less trustworthy?

                • Commiejones [comrade/them, he/him]@hexbear.net
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                  1 year ago

                  Here is an opinion post from the Washington Post.

                  that’s not news that is an opinion piece that references Zenz who is a liar and Nazi sympathiser.

                  The UN has done a fact finding Mission and they said there is no evidence of a Uyghur Genocide. It didn’t happen.

                  Yes there are Vocational schools in Xinjiang but that is to teach people trades to lift themselves out of poverty. The only “culture” being erased is religious extremist terrorism that snuck in through Afghanistan when USA pushed the Taliban out of Afghanistan. Yes there was a rapid increase in birth control measures in Xinjiang but that is what happens when women are given education, economic self determination, and access to proper medical care. They get a IUD so they can focus on living their lives the way they want to instead of being slaves to men who use them as domestic servants and baby incubators.

                  Zenz based his entire “genocide” theory off statistics and bad math because he is involved in the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation. It is an organization built to spread hate against communism. They hate Communism because the USSR killed 7/10 nazis that died in WW2. The large majority of “Victims of Communism” were Nazis and the people memorializing them are nazis too.

                  • randint@lemm.ee
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                    1 year ago

                    that’s not news that is an opinion piece

                    I literally stated that in my comment. You even quoted it.

                    [Zenz] is a liar and Nazi sympathiser

                    I just clicked that link and, wow, that tweet was quite stupid. He should not have said that. What the Nazis did was unexcusable. However, please keep this in mind - that being a Nazi sympathizer does not automatically invalidate one’s opinions on other topics.

                    The UN has done a fact finding Mission and they said there is no evidence of a Uyghur Genocide. It didn’t happen.

                    China is one of the five most powerful members of the UN (the permanent members of the security council). Though the security council does not have much to do with the investigation directly, there is no gainsaying that China has had a certain degree of influence. It is entirely possible that the UN decided to overlook their crimes due to pressure from China.

                    Yes there are Vocational schools in Xinjiang. […] and baby incubators.

                    When I told you that the Xinjiang camps are committing genocide or when you saw Zenz claiming the same how did you feel? You were thinking that I gobbled up and regurgitated all the US propaganda and that this is just a conspiracy theory because I couldn’t give concrete proof, weren’t you? This is also exactly how I feel toward your claims except that the propaganda you gobbled up were Chinese. Besides, I am pretty sure that when women are given more education, they decide not to have so many children either by using condoms or having less sex rather than getting IUDs.

            • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
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              1 year ago

              Here is a photo of the camp in Xinjiang:

              Here’s a photo of a camp in the USA.

              I actually don’t know if this image is fake or not, could be from a film for all I know. It’s a DDG search result. But then you didn’t actually research the origin of your photo either.

              Edit: This comment does not address the ICE concentration camps and is only replying to the quoted text. To be clear.

              • randint@lemm.ee
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                1 year ago

                The life expectancy of China in 2021 was 77.13 - not that much higher than the US.

                • Aria@lemmygrad.ml
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                  1 year ago

                  Yes but the USA has a PPP GDP PC of 76400 G–K$ and China has 21500 G–K$. How can you in good faith compare those?

                  (Life expectancy for Mexico, marginally richer per capita than China is 70. Life expectancy for the Philippines (poorer pc than China) is 69.)

                  The fact that China is in the same ballpark should be evidence enough that their policies are more people-orientated. The fact that they’re ahead despite the huge disadvantage should be a huge point of shame for the USA, not something to be dismissed with saying the gap is small.

    • ToastyMedic@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      Well, not quite. It’s more akin to if the union was pushed back and was limited to new-england.

      The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren’t the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.

      Also one of these states is an authoritarian piece of shit, and it’s definitely not Taiwan.

      • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren’t the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.

        The left wing of the KMT split from Chiang’s KMT in 1948 to form the Revolutionary Committee of the KMT. It was headed by a senior KMT General and Song Ching Ling the widow of Sun Yat Sen. Madam Song would later serve as a Vice President of the People’s Republic of China and the Revolutionary Committee of the KMT holds seats in the National People’s Congress to this day.

        If you even look at the history of the KMT, you’d see that it’s incredibly prone to factionalism, including a period during the First United Front where the CPC agreed to join the KMT as a wing to fight the Warlords but left after the KMT stabbed it in the back during the Shanghai Purges.

        Legally, the PRC is recognized by the UN as the sole representative of China under General Assembly Resolution 2758 and the overwhelming majority of the world’s nation’s recognize that there is only one China and that China is the PRC.

        Cope and seethe.

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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        1 year ago

        The PRC is the confederate equivalent, as they weren’t the original legal government unlike Taiwan, which legally is the heir of the ROC.

        Going by paper legality argument, ROC is also illegal because it wrested power from Qing. Which conquered China from Ming, which toppled Yuan, and going fast forward to Han, Qing, Zhao and Shang, neither of them also risen peacefully.

        • ToastyMedic@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Ahhh, Chinese history. Breaking every 400-500 years into total chaos, and someone new fixes it so the cycle repeated.

          • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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            1 year ago

            Does it looks like that to you? I would say they have unparallelled cultural and civilisational continuity rarily seen in any other place. And feudal empires falling is not the gotcha you think it is, especially when you look at the absolute clusterfuck in Europe (or many other places too).

            Also nice deflection.

            • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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              1 year ago

              Every great empire in human civilization has fallen. China is the only one to have fallen and then gotten back up multiple times.

              Like yeah China will probably fall again in the future, but the great grandchildren of everyone on this site will be long dead by then. Contrast that with America, which has had hegemony only since 1945 and already looks like it’s in terminal decline.

              • The_Jewish_Cuban [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                It will fall when they abolish the state as global communism has been achieved. Unfortunately this is still well after we and our grandkids die

              • barrbaric [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                Contrast that with America, which has had hegemony only since 1945 and already looks like it’s in terminal decline.

                They’ve lasted less than the British! The BRITISH!

            • ToastyMedic@reddthat.com
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              1 year ago

              You made your point dating to the shang, and I dont disagree. Even more, you’re right, feudal empires falling isn’t a gotcha.

              So what about a modern state being violently overthrown? Or is this different because one violent, illegiment warlord championed “the people”, and proceeded to starve 200* million of them after taking power?

              Which one of these two states still maintains democratic or republican ideals for the people, a reminder that real Legitimacy lay with the people.

              Sorry. Just a measley 50 million people mb. Still the worst famine in history. And 100% preventable.

              • Tankiedesantski [he/him]@hexbear.net
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                1 year ago

                Modern state is when you fund yourself off of opium profits, you appoint your gangster relatives to be in charge of state finances, your officials occasionally run off to form collaborationist governments with Imperial Japan, and you’re so corrupt and incompetent that your own allies are disgusted by you and you lose a war against your own people despite the military and financial backing of the most powerful country in the world.

                Democratic and republican ideals is when you retreat to an island because you got your ass handed to you and then perpetrate the White Terror against your people for 40 years.

              • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
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                1 year ago

                You made your point dating to the shang, and I dont disagree.

                Well, as i read about the history of China, previous entity of Xia apparently didn’t conquered anyone and even if they did, we don’t know, written history of China start from the late Shang period.

                About the rest Tankiedesantski answered you about the “republican ideas” of ROC, i can only add that even if you deflect yet again to “real Legitimacy lay with the people” there is nothing more really legitimate by the people than popular revolution which led to the state being supported by 90% of population.

      • KurtVonnegut [comrade/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        one of these states is an authoritarian piece of shit, and it’s definitely not Taiwan.

        Tell that to the indigenous people of Taiwan. I bet they’d love to hear about how they genocide was “non-authoritarian”.

      • AssortedBiscuits [they/them]@hexbear.net
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        1 year ago

        Nobody in SEA likes Taiwan. It doesn’t help that Taiwan has two naval bases in the South China Sea and always sides with the PRC against the rest of SEA over the SCS, mostly using the justification of “acktually the SCS is part of Chinese naval waters and we’re officially called the Republic of China, so this is Taiwanese naval waters btw since we’re officially called the Republic of China.”

    • randint@lemm.ee
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      1 year ago

      Is that a bad thing? In your hypothetical situation, Chinese people should be happy about their government selling weaponry to Texas, and the Americans should not support their sale of weaponry. To compare this to the real world scenario, Chinese people should feel angry about this and Americans should feel good. I don’t really get the point you’re trying to convey with your analogy.