Beeper Mini avoids some of those problems because it’s operating in a fundamentally different way. Its developers figured out how to register a phone number with iMessage, send messages directly to Apple’s servers, and have messages sent back to your phone natively inside the app. It was a tricky process that involved deconstructing Apple’s messaging pipeline from start to finish. Beeper’s team had to figure out where to send the messages, what the messages needed to look like, and how to pull them back down from the cloud. The hardest part, Migicovsky said, was cracking what is essentially Apple’s padlock on the whole system: a check to see whether the connected device is a genuine Apple product.
yeah, I give it until Thursday.
It’s been out for a long time with limited access and nothing yet. Maybe Apple will change their mind toward it when it’s being used by a large group of people finally. Hopefully not.
Edit: I was wrong. See below.
It’s been out for a long time with limited access and nothing yet.
you’re thinking of regular Beeper, wthich used Macs hosted by the company to relay iMessage messages.
That sounds exactly like what what Nothing Chats was shamed for a couple weeks ago, how has Beeper been fairing so well?
Beeper’s entire premise is based on decrypting your messages on their servers, re-encrypting them and sending them to you, and pinky promising that they’re not reading them.
So it really is the exact same thing as Nothing Chats then? I don’t think I trust them any more than Sunbird…
- Beeper can be self-hosted if you have a Mac, so you don’t have to trust their servers
- Sunbird’s app (Nothing Chat) was riddled with its own security vulnerabilities that allowed users to read other users messages, which were all stored as unencrypted plaintext, all discovered by the community within 24 hours of launch
- Beeper is actually open about how their technology works and what it’s limitations are, while Sunbird/Nothing basically lied about their product and never provided any meaningful documentation
The difference, as I understand it, is Beeper hasn’t claimed to not be doing that. Sunbird/Nothing touted E2EE and that was a lie.
That makes sense I suppose. A company that doesn’t outright lie about how their service works would have more goodwill behind it, wouldn’t it.
It wasn’t just that E2EE was a lie, their own server software was full of its own bugs that allowed third party access to user messages, which were stored unencrypted in their database.
Not even close. Sunbird was not open source and was storing plaintext messages on their servers.
Aged like wine!
Okay I’m out of the loop, why is iMessage on Android such a big deal? I know that images get compressed but it sounds like Google and Apple are finally working together to draw up a spec there. Besides that it’s… A color difference?
There’s a massive cultural thing in the US about the iPhone being the preferred phone and if you don’t have one it must be because you’re too poor to afford one. Obviously this is a result of marketing and isn’t universal but it is a surprisingly widely held view.
Given that, showing up in a group chat as a lone blue bubble marks you out as the inferior group member (in some people’s eyes). It doesn’t matter so much 1:1 but if there are 10 people the odd one out stands out.
Given that, showing up in a group chat as a lone blue bubble marks you out as the inferior group member
Not really how it works though. If there are 74 iMessage users and 1 Android user, ALL chats become green. Ergo Android users are often simply omitted from chats.
This. I was the last member of my family on Android and made the fam text chain a mess to the point there was a separate one with everyone but me and I would have to look at it on my wife’s phone.
I finally got an iPhone partly because of this. Also because the mini is just a much better size than anything that was available android wise that I liked.
made the fam text chain a mess
Your fam made the text chain a mess by using iMessage. They could use literally any other messenger without problems.
Oh for sure, but that is just how it goes. iMessage is just the default and slowly takes over.
The real issue here is that people in the US are tied to using SMS for real-time chat groups when so many better (and private, and well known) alternatives exist. Thankfully, in Europe, nobody so far as I know ever really uses SMS anymore – whether for single or group chats.
Not really a thing. Google is trying to make it seem like there is, but I’ve never met a single person that has ever cared.
why is iMessage on Android such a big deal?
Being able to use rich chat features.
it sounds like Google and Apple are finally working together
Not at all. Apple was forced to support RCS by the digital markets act. While Google uses RCS, there’s a ton of functionality they build on top of it. Apple will likely implement the absolute bare minimum that they’re required to, which likely won’t include E2EE.
Google and Apple are finally working together
I think this is the primary reason. Apple only announced working on RCS support very recently. Once that’s out, I don’t really see a place in the market for this.
And it isn’t just compressed images. MMS doesn’t support reactions, replies, typing indicators, or read receipts because it’s ancient. A proper, standardized replacement has been long overdue.
Granted, I’ve heard that RCS is currently heavily reliant on Google’s own servers, so it could be argued as to how “open” this really is.
RCS protocol is open. The apps… not so much.
I think the currently available apps not being free software is less important than the protocol being open, which is good. It allows for the possibility of FOSS clients in the future. My bigger concern at the moment is if most/all of the actual backend infrastructure is controlled by a single stakeholder.
It’s not as big of a deal as people like to pretend it is
The messages app also supports forwarding text messages to other devices.
We can even ignore the other features of iMessage. This adds a layer of convenience to those who use both iOS and Android.
Eh still, Android offers this, Windows you can do this with an android or an iphone I think, not a game changer personally
Yes, but it works better for those whose main SIMs are on iPhones. I personally use BlueBubbles at the moment.
It requires a google account though so I can’t use it :(
I don’t really understand why they insist on that as it doesn’t seem to use google otherwise. I do have google play services, just no account logged in (which is not necessary for things like push to work!)
Because they get your profile picture, name, and email address when you click accept. I went through with it just to test, but definitely getting some data from its users.
Yeah it annoyed me that you have to use google contacts
I was told “Beeper Mini relies on Google for some features: for example, notifications. - Abdullah”
Weird, I have a thousand other apps where my notifications work just fine without being signed into Google. Makes no sense to me.
Yep notifications require google play services installed. They do not require a google account or being signed in to one. It’s based on the device ID alone. I don’t have a google ID on my phone and push messages work just fine.
Yep notifications require google play services installed.
No they don’t. But that’s not what we’re talking about anyway.
They do not require a google account or being signed in to one.
The app does.
If you use on android apps from the playstore, most apps are built to relay their notifications through Google’s Firebase Cloud Messaging (FCM), so they don’t have to have a background notification listeners running 24/7. It also means less overhead from multiple notification listeners from every app having its own. So yes, if an app is built on top of google play services, it requires “google play services”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firebase_Cloud_Messaging
If an app says it doesn’t rely on google play services, it uses an alternative notification listener or websockets, which might not be as effective, because Google is inbuilt and won’t kill its own apps, the scale of its infrastructure, and its habit of listening on people’s activity.
Add in Androids habit of killing background services, and you don’t always get your notification when the app isn’t in the foreground.
Even Signal from Playstore uses Google Play Services for notifications.
https://old.reddit.com/r/signal/comments/g217a6/what_can_google_glean_from_signal_using_fcmgcm/
There is also an alternative push protocol called UnifiedPush, but not many of the popular privacy focused messengers care to implement it.
Yes I’m aware of all of that, thanks
Well, Google firebase notifications do. Either Google play or something comparable like MicroG. It’s possible to run them another way too but not many app backends support that.
But yes my complaint is exactly that this app requires google.
Beeper was pretty dang hyped for its universal chat, I kept seeing it mentioned a while ago while it was in a closed beta.
Because I participated in the closed beta I get Beeper free for life. I’ve been using Beeper now for almost 3.5 years and I love it.
What is your stance on being able to give encryption keys to a third party without the other participants of a chat consenting, let alone knowing about it?
If someone in my contacts used bridges, effectively breaking e2ee, I’d want to know about it.
Ideally, people should not be allowed to do that without informing their contacts, at the very least.
why is iMessage on Android such a big deal?
Being able to use rich chat features.
Like what? I know there is a difference in how group chats are handled, but thats a compatibility issue, not a rich chat feature. The only thing I can think of is Apples stupid push for more emojis and even worse Memojis. Otherwise, pics, gifs, emojis work between Apple and Android. Seems like its the green v blue and group chat edits that are the differences.
But maybe I dont know.
Being able to send videos that don’t look godawful would be nice
That’s just apple refusing to use rcs, so it changes to sms, which uses the phone connection, not the data connection.
I can send them fine on Verizon SMS, from Android to Apple. Apple decided that sending via SMS, regardless of carrier limit, they get wrecked. When I send the same video back to Android from my iPhone, the video is shit.
I’ve tested this repeatedly across carriers. Since Verizon doesn’t seem to have an MMS size limit, it makes it pretty clear what’s going on.
Blame carriers for limiting MMS sizes.
They look just fine over RCS. Which everyone else supports and apple could even integrate support for into iMessage.
Even straight up MMS on most carriers has no limit or a generous enough one that a short clip comes through just fine.
iMessage is a stealth chat app. Its nothing special or amazing in that regard, but in the US early in the smart phone revolution there were still lots of not tech savvy people who would stick to SMS/MMS as their primary mode of “texting”.
Let me tell you on flip phone or on android MMS SUCKED. For group chats. Low quality pictures, messages come at an inconsistent sometimes slow and then sometimes all at once pace, and you dont get even simple features like “soandso is typing”.
What apple did was force the hand of these people who prefer text by just making the text message feature a proprietary chat app thats able to chat with other apple users. If a person is not an apple user then they are just sent a text message. This gives the impression that iPhones have better text messaging when of course it’s just text message.
It sounds harmless. Convenient even. Now you dont have to try to get grandma and grandpa to install a messenger app like whatsapp or telegram or signal(or in those early days google messenger, or aim/yim/msn, or facebook messenger, or still whatsapp). Its not hard they are just stuck in their ways and they will make a mountain out of going to app store, hitting download, and then opening this other icon before effortlessly doing some complex task outside the digital realm.
The thing is the fallback mode means that you dont get any of the good stuff with non apple users. If you invite an android user to your group chat it converts into a terrible MMS text message back and forth in order to work.
Now this is objectively a shortcoming of apple’s product. They (until this news) didnt have iMessenger on other non apple products. Objectively that makes it a bad chat app since it excludes large portions of the population and is not open enough to allow 3rd party alternatives to fill the gap. That said if you live in the US where iPhones are popular, and 3rd party chat apps didnt become a default due to free sms, well then all your friends are doing just fine and its that guy with the android thats making everything worse.
Now why the “there’s an app for that” userbase has so much trouble installing and using chat app alternatives I will never quite understand, but it’s there and it’s an issue.
in the US early in the smart phone revolution there were still lots of not tech savvy people who would stick to SMS/MMS as their primary mode of “texting”.
I still do. I just dont care that much. I use Linux on a daily basis and as my main platform, use Azure and AWS, have an MSDN, run my own email, host my own websites. I am certainly not “non tech savy”.
Let me tell you on flip phone or on android MMS SUCKED.
Its fine. I have an iPhone and Android (and a pinephone for good measure) and Apple has 3 things going for it: 1. more security and privacy - which is a big deal. 2. group chat management (add and remove) which is a nice feature, particularly if you are using it for business. 3. spam reduction.
Other wise, I do not like read receipts. I also do not care if you are typing. Chat is chat, I pay attention to it when I feel like it, and most people acknowledge if it is important. Read receipts do not indicate acknowledgement. All the other features, like stickers for example, are just distractions.
The images are clear and large enough on a small screen, links work, gifs work, I am not sure what else I would want. If you care about sending a large detailed photo, just link it to your sharing platform (my website, dropbox, etc).
If you invite an android user to your group chat it converts into a terrible MMS text message back and forth in order to work.
Funny that you describe it as terrible and awful. An article I read did the same thing. Oh no! I am going to get… words. Huh, nothing different.
And getting grandma and grandpa to use a different messaging app? Why?
So aside from the 3 features I mentioned, this all seems like added crap to something that works well enough.
Still if we can all be on RCS or whatever standard, it would be nice. I just could do without all that additional nonsense that people feel they need to use for some reason when all I want is some words.
Edit: what DID suck was when the cell companies started offering SMS, using the empty headers to push the texts around, AND charged people for the privilege. What a scam that was.
It’d be nice if apple wasn’t so petty.
Im curious how long this would be able to work for. Even if apple isnt outright hostile to this existing and doesnt break compatibility on purpose it could easily do so by accident when they update imessenge
