“b-but bears are actually dangerous!” Shut the hell up.
People’s safety is more important than people’s feelings.
Indeed. It strikes me as pointlessly gendered. All people, safety is more important than feelings.
The whole thing was meant to be rage bait.
or it’s purposefully gendered in response to the man vs bear thing
Which is also rage bait
Even then it’s contradictory. Men wouldn’t be upset about being chosen over a bear and women wouldn’t be safe if the bear was chosen, so in that specific context it’s nonsensical.
What wat? What do you want to know?
Most bears don’t seek out and attack women, but many men do. One of those happens far more often than the other, and you’re either uninformed or willfully ignorant about that fact.
Yet another exhibit of people not knowing anything about bears. If bears and women had anywhere near the same amount of interactions as men and women, maulings would be up by a percentage with an alarming number of zeroes. This is like the literal equivalent to the Face Eating Leopard Party supporters being surprised that the Leopards are eating their faces.
Yeah this meme as well as the original bear one were meant to be divisive and make people angry. That’s the point of these kinds of memes, they’re not really meant to be intelligent, they’re meant to stir up drama and make people fight.
you know what else is pointlessly gendered? the patriarchyfeminist messaging has to be gendered because the patriarchy is a gender issue.
that said, feminism is for everybody. liberating women from oppressive structures by nature does the same for men.
If it’s not gendered and is for everybody, that isn’t that just the original statement? That safety is for everybody? That seems rather circular.
But I think I get what you’re saying. We focus on lifting up women, and everyone benefits.
yeah i see how my comment was a little confusing let me try to edit :p thanks for the good faith question tho
Hey no worries. More people should act in good faith in my opinion. We don’t even have to agree with everyone but we should have mutual respect for each other and want a better world.
If this weren’t gendered I’m not sure I would connect that this was posted as result of people’s reaction to the bears vs men thing.
Ah, good point! None of us would be here in that case.
That gives me feelings of “All lives matter” which minimized the issues of black people. Can you explain why this is different?
Except one has built in meaning and the other is a simple meme made by one person with an oversimplified idea used likely to stir up people considering all the discussions happening about bears or whatever.
dsfgasfsaf
It’s disingenuous all the way down
BLM, no sarcasm.
this statement is funny to me, because linguistically, safety is a relatively “felt” concept. We “feel” exposed in a massive open field, and we “feel” safe inside of a building, because we are no longer exposed in a massive wide open field.
In some aspects, physical safety is a thing, but given the context of this thread here, i think it’s probably appropriate to say that it’s actually the feeling of safety here, that matters more than anything. And as a result, this makes the statement a non starter.
Because to some degree, that feeling of safety, is based on well… Feelings, and if feelings are somehow less important than the safety that those feelings are capable of deriving, than how are you supposed to experience safety?
Are you really all lives mattering this post rn? God damn dude. I hope every person in your life belittles every problem you personally have by telling you that tons of people have that problem.
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BLM, no sarcasm.
all lives matter amirite /s
BLM, no sarcasm.
the bureau of land management is on some shit istg
And all lives matter, right? How else can we commandeer this conversation?
BLM, no sarcasm.
dsfgasfsaf
Physical safety or psychological safety?
I have some extra emotional capacity today so(see edit*) I’ll post some wrong think: but can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as “(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society”
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them, because they are the only figures who will give them praise and a sense of belonging.
Edit: Its a new day now, and I no longer have the energy. If you want to vent, understanding that venting in this manner will bring about little to no positive change, you do you, I will no longer be responding
yeah this pretty much.
Polarized speech does nothing for anybody. If woman are talking about this bear thing to make a point, i feel like we would be better off actually making sure that people understood that it was about making a point, rather than a literal fucking interpretation of the problem
but no, funny internet points are more important, capitalism ruins everything it fucking touches.
These kinds of things are great for letting off steam with friends, but absolutely TERRIBLE at getting a point across to people who dont already know said point
specifically the intent here is to drum up drama, controversy and attention. Which obviously worked, but the problem is that nobody is using it to do something productive with.
Some people are definitely using it to create drama sure, but others are using it to vent, and yet others dont understand why some men wouldnt just try to understand why women would choose the bear… basically its a clusterfuck of a meme
i only said drama since i think the point of it is to bring up discussion around the problem at hand here, the problem being that people dont understand that part of it.
Yeah the whole “any press is good press” idea mostly applies to things you want to make money from because for any position you can think of, there’s people out there that will support it. So, given your position, if you can get more attention by creating loud arguments, even if they are generally against you, that extra noise means you’ll reach more people that might be sympathetic to your position, and you’ll increase revenue from those people.
If the goal is to capture hearts and minds to change the world, controversial attention is the opposite of what you want because antagonizing a group of people will always generate opposition, sometimes where there was none, and sometimes even where there was formerly support.
One of the real dangers of sexism and racism and all that is that it generates more sexism and racism. So even if you decide that you really don’t care about group x, you’re done with them and they can all die in a fire and you don’t even care if that makes you evil, expressing that will contribute to a cycle that will come back to hurt others in your group.
It’s why genocide keeps coming up in human history. That’s where this all leads when it’s a racist or cultural thing. Sexism is different because the genders can’t survive without each other, but it is a reason why we’re seeing a resurgence of conservatives willing to unironically talk about the worst parts of patriarchism as if they are good things, like women just existing as servants to men.
Though when I look at everything going on in the world, it really feels like humanity in general needs to get the fight out of their system because so many conflicts are caught in this kind of cycle with no peaceful resolution in sight for any of it that doesn’t involve some major compromises on things I’m not sure anyone is willing to compromise on. WWIII is going to be messy because I think the national conflicts might be overshadowed by domestic ones, which will cause even more issues as they spill into each other.
If the goal is to capture hearts and minds to change the world, controversial attention is the opposite of what you want because antagonizing a group of people will always generate opposition, sometimes where there was none, and sometimes even where there was formerly support.
i think the intent was to be inflammatory to gather the obvious negative responses and double back on those so you can use the whole thing as publicity stunt essentially. Though there are going to be negative aspects of it, that’s why i’ve been pretty critical over most of it.
As for patriarchy, i think it’s both a bit of thinking back to the good old days, and trying to edge a little bit of “trust me bro, it’s going to work” out of people. Because for men, it obviously has some advantages that we don’t need to talk about, but they also have to sell it to women, so they’re selling it by claiming stuff like “you won’t have to work anymore” and the list goes on really. None of that is true or beneficial, but an incorrect statement sells a good story, so.
Honestly, i don’t forsee a world war 3, i feel like it would’ve already happened if it would have. At best north korea is going to try and pull some shit, but that will almost certainly do nothing. I think realistically a lot of places are going to collectively agree on “enemy bad” “kill enemy” and there is a non zero chance that some sort of mutiny happens during or immediately after, but given some time people won’t want it. I don’t really think it’s a significant concern to be honest, i think most of the political shit is mostly rhetoric, things seem a lot worse than they are, a lot of bark and no bite essentially.
If ww3 ever happens it’s going to be incredibly messy, because ww2 was, and ww1 even more so before it.
But many do just that, then you focus on the ones that don’t, every cycle. Over and over. You choose what to focus on. Not we as a society, literally you. You choose to engage with that negative part of it and continue to. Nobody is forcing you
it’s been getting better as of recent, initially when i first dug into it things were quite a bit worse than they are now, people seemingly have had some time to think about it, and figured out that “yeah this is kind of stupid”
You choose what to focus on. Not we as a society, literally you. You choose to engage with that negative part of it and continue to. Nobody is forcing you
i have a fascinating idea for you to consider. I being an individual person of my own accord, can simply choose what i want to think about. The problem that i have is with the people who aren’t engaging with it productively, it’d be weird for me to insult people who were, or pretty fucking pretentious for me to compliment people who do, although i’ve probably done that at least once. Given that the singular me, doesn’t constitute the whole of society, and the fact that i don’t proclaim to be god or something, i think that’s pretty reasonable.
Like here’s another fun fact, you can just ignore me. I won’t be offended.
It’d be rather weird to identify a problem in a system, and spend 50% of your time contemplating and observing the working portions of it that you already understand, no?
Instead of absorbing some kind of stance where now I am the one contradicting myself, you could just skip the defense where I get to be pretentious, and go straight into the realisation that it’s only trying to be helpful. I’m not sugarcoating it because it just makes it even harder to understand the root of your complaint, which is that you, yourself, focus on something you don’t want to. Not that others do it. Because they choose also what they focus on and have already chosen that. I focus on something I want to when I write to you, I like helping real people that deserve it, to get out of shit that I have been in. So essentially, it’s just a long dialog with society that they should x or y, that you are focusing on but you wish it was yourself you were talking to. It’s not going to make any difference who reads it and it’s easier to run over the choice to make sure stuff in general in your life don’t also get more and more compulsive
Instead of absorbing some kind of stance where now I am the one contradicting myself,
i’m not sure how that would make you contradictory with yourself. I’m just saying that this is a micro specific, not a macro specific, like you were stating. I’m aware that i’m looking at through an incredibly tight view, that’s kind of the point actually.
I’m not here to talk about the broad environment here, because if i was, i’d have written a three hundred page study on it, and published it by now. I’m here specifically to discuss the aspects that seem to capture my attention. Which leads to me micro focusing on specific details.
which is that you, yourself, focus on something you don’t want to.
no? I’m focusing on it because i think it’s interesting.
I focus on something I want to when I write to you,
yeah, and you did, which is why i mentioned that you could just ignore me, because you were pretty clearly just attacking the way that i was thinking about it specifically, which you are allowed to do. But doesn’t help me, because i understand that. Notice how i never said that feminism bad? Or that women lying bad? Or anything like that, i was specifically talking about the interactions that i’ve been observing as of recent, and had been curious about, and like any good curious individual, i prodded for information, because it’s healthy to do that.
You could’ve asked me why i was being so specific, and focusing so aggressively on things, and i would’ve said what i just said now. But instead you hit with something relatively inflammatory. Acting like you somehow have knowledge of my understanding of the world, and i don’t and wanted to “inform me” about it, through a rather obtuse statement frankly. Why wouldn’t i respond in kind?
I like helping real people that deserve it, to get out of shit that I have been in.
that’s great, i haven’t been in that shit or experienced it before, so i’m not one to talk about it, which is why i’m focusing on the parts that i know i understand in a very explicit manner.
So essentially, it’s just a long dialog with society that they should x or y, that you are focusing on but you wish it was yourself you were talking to.
perhaps? Idk how you expect people to make their points more clearly understood by others. Yeah i’m essentially talking with myself here, that’s kind of the point, i’m trying to clearly identify how i think about these things so others aren’t outside of the loop, unless you think that other account is my alt account or something? In which case, that’s pretty funny.
It’s not going to make any difference who reads it and it’s easier to run over the choice to make sure stuff in general in your life don’t also get more and more compulsive
i’m not even sure how i should read this, it doesn’t really make any sense.
Escalating defense mechanisms… Yo man I’m backing slowly away okay, you good luck with your scientific studies and whatnot peace out
alright then, see you on the flip side i spose
I wanted to post something like this but could not write it well. Thanks for posting it.
Yeah, thats why I posted this. I’m having a good day today, and so I was able to find the words that others who’ve been affected by the bear meme struggled to find the words to. If I get some flak for it, I have the emotional space to explain my reasoning
Don’t forget the other side, I’ve seen some of the discussions around this by women turn really TERFy. Both sides of this debate are gateways to the Alt right.
Tbh the TERF stuff isnt surprising since a lot of these memes have just a hint of Misandry to them, and when it comes to TERFs, they dont see Trans Women as women, and see them as men, so its moreso their ideas on men that are guiding their ideology, than it is about women
can we stop antagonizing populations that feel disenfranchised by society and therefor giving the truly evil fucks out there an easy population to brainwash and feed extra scummy ideologies to?
Young nerdy men who feel excluded from society that dont have any strong female figures in their life are barraged by a constant stream of messaging that could easily be interpreted as “(white) men are evil and the source of all problems with society”
I think it’s a two-pronged problem.
Young men are encouraged to be aggressive, thin-skinned, and superficial. They’re sold this idea of sex as a reward for climbing to the top of some nebulously defined social hierarchy rather than an expression of intimacy with a romantic partner.
Meanwhile, young women are victims of the Madonna/Whore complex, simultaneously expected to be sexual and virginal, model-esque and down-to-earth, your plaything and your mom. They’re this thing men are expected to fight over, but also personally responsible for the drama created by this social expectation.
And so much of this engineered conflict revolves around selling you something. Gym memberships or diet supplements or fashion accessories or self-help classes or luxury status symbols are all supposed to be a thing we can buy into in order to climb the ladder to an ideal romantic life. All to commodify the idea of love.
By constantly antagonizing them for not being able to navigate the political nuance of those messages, we give an incredibly easy pathway to the more toxic ideologies that the Tates of the world will pull them into to profit off of them
Guys like Andrew Tate are ultimately just bullies. And bullying is a tool that one class of people use to force the others to conform and submit. So much of this boils down to Tate inducting new members of his cult of personality by sending older members out to jump them in.
The only real remedy is to shut these guys down. Stand together. Stick up for your friends and neighbors in the face of fascist bullying. Push back.
Also known as: can we please stop pushing people into evil echo chambers by “moderating” them through auto ban because opinion we don’t like? Its not only men vs women, it applies to anything slightly divisive.
We wouldn’t need the super thick skin that is needed now if we hadn’t banned all the people back in the day for merely disagreeing. They went to more evil places and now, consequently, are more evil. We are kinda reaping what we sowed
This is so extremely well put.
You do help by expressing things so succinctly
That’s the thing about memes. They’re not really a rational form of discussing a topic, and tend to exploit emotions to boost their spread. But it seems to be more or less the only form of discussing things nowadays. The result is that as a society we no longer solve anything, and only work together to make things worse now.
spoiler
,
good comment regarding the ongoing presentation of this meme. i encourage folks who read this to make posts that welcome young men and encourage them to understand the nuance, rather than judge them a priori for not already getting it.
that said it’s important to note that the origin of this meme was i believe just a
anonymouspoll where women expressed their lived experience and wasn’t meant to be antagonistic at all. bad men were the ones that took offense to what these women felt and made the meme what it is.not saying you don’t know any of this just feel it’s worth being said :) thank you for your nuanced and leveled criticism of the rhetorical value of the trend.
This right here is the reason I still bother to engage people on this topic. The women who honestly believe a bear is less threatening than a random man are a lost cause imo, so my goal is to help men find supportive people and spaces that aren’t dangerous idiots like Tate.
You can be a man without being forced to exist in the manufactured redpill/male feminist dichotomy.
I am a man and I am affected 0% by this meme. This meme was a chance to display some empathy and understand why it might be that the bear analogy strikes a chord with many women.
When I go to the grocery store, do I have to think about being snatched? My privilege affords me the convenience of not worrying about that. Do I need to worry about being sexually assaulted walking home? Statistically, probably not. There are a whole host of problems and horrific fates that befall women disproportionately, and very often at the hands of men.
Why would a woman feel safer with a bear?
The 750,000 black bears of North America kill less than one person per year on the average, while men ages 18-24 are 167 times more likely to kill someone than a black bear.
Most attacks by black bears are defensive reactions to a person who is too close, which is an easy situation to avoid. Injuries from these defensive reactions are usually minor.
https://bear.org/bear-facts/how-dangerous-are-black-bears
Since 1784 there have been 82 fatal human/bear conflicts by wild brown bears in North America. Yellowstone National Park has seen a mere 8 since being established in 1872, which is only one more than the number of people who have died from a falling tree.
https://bearvault.com/bear-attack-statistics/
Seems to me that even I would be safer with a bear than a man. Makes you think, doesn’t it?
L M A O white nerdy young men are not the perfect angels you think, I have multiple friends who were sexually assaulted by such people
The problem with your logic is it creates a situation where society at large will never talk about this important topic and think about ways to reduce the scope and impact of it.
The sad reality is that men are largely responsible for SA, and saying this is always going to make some men uncomfortable. They’re always going to react to negatively, and people are always going to post what you posted.
This is not antagonizing men. This is important data for men. Do you want to get laid? Understand where women are coming from. Don’t do spooky shit on dates.
Listen, I understand. It’s bad news, but it is what it is. It’s reality. It’s like women saying if you never take a shower or bath in your entire life, a relationship is out of the question.
The fact that you are trying to pass this off as a way to get laid is honestly disgusting
Why? Women like sex, they also like sex with men. Men like sex. Where is the problem?
You’re either a troll, being the fucked kind of sarcastic, or you have some seriously fucked values…
Ladies and gentlemen, this was their response. If they had a better one, they would have used it.
Man are not evil and I don’t think anyone is making that statement here, but the problem is that we can’t know which men are evil. Of course we should avoid antagonizing them, since, like you said, it often drives young lonely men towards the manosphere, but also men should try actually listening to why most women pick the bear.
I mean yeah, that was my point. Currently though our messaging is insanely antagonistic and there are a LOT of men without women in their lives who can explain this to them. People dont listen to those antagonizing them, the throw their shields/walls up, and seek those who are friendlier to them, which, in this case would be the manpsphere, posts like this only preach to the choir, and push away the men who need to know why women would choose the bear the most.
It’s even worse, a lot of the posts here are outright refusing to explain anything, or branding them as the problem for not understanding immediately.
It’s so insanely bad it almost feels like an incel psyop at times
These young men can … listen to women??? They don’t need to be spoon fed feminism by friends, there is a ton of information available if they care to learn. The fact that they choose to listen to sexist assholes rather than have their feelings hurt for two seconds is part of the problem dumbass
it often drives young lonely men towards the manosphere, but also men should try actually listening to why most women pick the bear.
ok, and as evidenced by the previous thread, there was a lot of nothing being explained actively happening.
Reiterating the metaphorical reasoning as to why someone would do this doesn’t explain the underlying reason why people are using a metaphorical device in the first place.
don’t tell people that you would rather be with a bear, tell people that you would rather be with a bear, because the entire point of the statement is that it’s literally fucking insane. The problem here was the second someone goes “isn’t this insane?” instead of people responding with “yes, that’s the point, it’s supposed to be!” people respond with “and you’re part of the problem” yknow, because surely that wouldn’t cause problems.
It’s not that people are saying something, or aren’t saying something, it’s that people are trying to make a point using a metaphorical device that they never drop, it’s like irony poisoning, except it’s just not irony.
TL;DR It’s hard to listen to someones reasoning when they never fucking explain it. Granted it did get better eventually, but jesus fucking christ did it take a while.
I used to actively avoid women out of fear of making them uncomfortable (still do occasionally, when I have a particularly shitty day), I mean like full on 0 eye contact, lotsa distance and god forbid speaking. Being tolled I’m too fucking stupid to understand female issues and tolled that I have it so easy because I can be a literal pig without getting judged did a number on my brain. I mean I get it, women have it much harder, but being completely pushed aside and forced to associate with literal trash, all my efforts made worthless just because women have to put in much more effort, while I only chose to do a bit more. It hurts. When a girl is freaked out and starts running, because I’m taking a similar route to her’s (because I just happened to live in the same direction), I understand her reaction, but it doesn’t change the fact that it makes me wish I didn’t exist, if my fucking existence is a problem in it self. It’s shit like this that makes me wish I was at least trans or something, not born a fucking bogeyman that hurts people by breathing the same air as them.
I’ll still purposely switch to the opposite street if its not very populated and I’m unintentionally following a woman for too many blocks (because we just happen to be going in the same direction). Remember though that the most extreme people are the ones who shout the loudest, most women wont be unempathetic to your struggles, and understand that society has challenges for you as a man that they themselves dont have to experience. You arent a boogeyman, and you and your struggles are valid, dont let shit like the bear meme convince you otherwise
This.
(Throwing my two cents in: remembering to breath in such situations seems to help alleviate the anxiety of how you might unintentionally come across, and help you appear less intense— seemingly less likely to been seen as a threat)
honestly, and i hate to say this, i’m kind of at the polar opposite end of the scale myself, where i think i’d probably actively antagonize women because the chances of someone else who would actually cause problems stopping me is significantly less due to the fact that i’m actively doing it, and have no intention of causing harm to anyone.
Perhaps that’s just my satirical commentary bleeding through into real life, but genuinely i don’t even know what to fucking do anymore.
but the problem is that we can’t know which men are evil.
It’s very much possible with these things called emotional intelligence and empathy. Used in combination they allow you to walk in another’s shoes for just a split second and see where their mind is.
I don’t think that any amount of empathy allows me to know if a stranger is dangerous.
If it’s alexithymia or such I hope you have trusted people in your life you can ask about random people.
On the flipside if that kind of thing is due to being on the schizo spectrum I can say with personal authority that yes it’s very much possible: Figures it’s not that I can’t do it it’s that I had a life-long habit of actively avoiding tuning into random people, the resonance being so strong that their neuroses get me all cramped up and swamped with random shit requiring clean-up after the fact. But deep dives aren’t really necessary for a threat radar what you’re primarily looking for is their attitude towards relating on eye level, whether there’s an inferiority/superiority thing going on.
Not OP, but look, if someone, let’s say a stranger, has nefarious motives, they have an incentive to fake their mannerisms, this means relying on your empathy and social intelligence alone is a mistake since they may be used as a vector of attack.
In order to be safe, one must make sure they are not harmed or endangered in any way, this includes avoiding certain situations with strangers.
Also, don’t just randomly pathologize people just because you don’t understand where they are coming from, even if done with no harm in mind, you will come off as very disrespectful.
Now I might be schizosplaining here but faked mannerisms are glaringly obvious. Especially when it comes to what I recommended doing, and that’s checking out the willingness to relate at eye level as the only way to do that is to actually do that – if you hide something you’re either on the demure or arrogant side of things.
Also, don’t just randomly pathologize people
I made no diagnosis, I was talking about a possibility. A possibility that might be true or false, if it’s true then I might have saved someone’s life as they finally understand that something’s different about them, if it’s false, then they can brush it off. If they’re so up their ass that they’re getting their underwear in a twist over that well then at least I tried, I’m willing to be the asshole in that situation. And so should you if you value your fellow humans.
The thing is, I’ve seen statements like this before. Except when I heard it, it was being used to justify ignoring women’s experiences and feelings in regard to things like sexual harassment and feeling unsafe, since that’s “just a feeling” as well. It wasn’t okay then, and it’s not okay the other way around. The truth is that feelings do matter, on both sides. Everyone should feel safe and welcome in their surroundings. And how much so that is, is reflected in how those people feel.
The outcome of men feeling being respected and women feeling safe are not mutually exclusive. The sad part is that someone who is reading this here is far more likely to be an ally than a foe, yet the people who need to hear the intended message the most will most likely never hear it nor be bothered by it. There’s a stick being wedged here that is only meant to divide, and oh my god is it working.
The original post about bears has completely lost all meaning and any semblance of discussion is lost because the metaphor is inflammatory by design - sometimes that’s a good thing, to highlight through absurdity. But metaphors are fragile - if it’s very likely to be misunderstood or offensive, the message is lost in emotion. Personally I think this metaphor is just highly ineffective at getting the message across, as it has driven people who would stand by the original message to the other side due to the many uncharitable interpretations it presents. And among the crowd of reasonable people are those who confirm those interpretations and muddy the water to make women seem like misandrists, and men like sexual assault deniers. This meme is simply terrible and perhaps we can move on to a better version of it that actually gets the message across well, instead of getting people at each other’s throat.
Downvoted not because it isn’t true, but because they aren’t automatically mutually exclusive and because it is an unnecessary jab at half of the human species. Why are we paying attention to divisive bullshit instead of focusing on things that actually have the potential to help?
However, women’s feelings does not equal women’s safety.
But bears are just so cute and fluffy! They could never hurt a fly.
but safety is to some degree also derived from feelings, because human psychology for some reason.
There is no winning here, i think.
The perception of safety, maybe. But not actual safety. It’s an important distinction.
pretty much just a restatement of my original comment, but three weeks later, almost.
This.
I’m a woman (a trans one if that matters to you) and have experienced sexual assault and domestic violence from both men and women.
I know the point that people are trying to make with the whole bear thing.
But I think the friction comes from women talk about this as a theoretical to make a point, where men are thinking more literally.
And I do belive that no one in there right mind, if actually given this option in real life, would pick a bear (unless maybe it was definitely one of the more harmless species).
Each and every one of us, even those of us that have survived SA, have had countless uneventful interactions with men you don’t know. Even when it’s just one on one. And its mostly normal biases that makes us remember the shitty ones more. And something a lot of people forget is that the vast majority of SA victims already know their assailant, so the idea of a rando assaulting you is even less likely. So yes I would much rather be in the woods with a man, than a wild fucking animal. And if you’re a reasonable person, then you would too.
How many female teachers have been caught fucking their barely pubescent students this year alone so far?
It isn’t a men-women problem. People just suck.
Yes, but divided people == profit?
True.
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dsfgasfsaf
Yeah I kind of feel where the both of you are coming from, but statistically it is a men-women issue across the world.
Statistically the disparity is significant.
It’s a drastic disparity. Men do 80%+ of violent crime, 95% of murders, and 95% of sexual violence, with the caveat that we know, for sure, is severely under reported.
Yet people are entitled to not be prejudiced against for their immutable qualities.
Correct.
Every time a woman gets attacked there is a large contingent of the population who start to blame the fact that they weren’t living under the assumption of being in danger from men. In this post’s comment section you can see people making comments about not carrying a gun, not taking self defense seriously, etc. These are also often people who are in the “not all men” crowd. So women are shit on both for treating men like a danger, while also being shit on for not doing just that. People will also demand that women, in any social environment, discuss the subject in a dispassionate, and clinical, manner, or in a warm and friendly manner, in which the subject, men, are treated with kid gloves. Who gives a shit that this has left the person speaking with life long trauma issues, you better be nice about it, or it’s your fault nothing changes. This is the type of thing that is the problem here. This isn’t the only commonly seen way women are forced into a catch 22 situation. Society has pushed them into an impossible situation where, no matter what they do, they are wrong. I think society, especially men, have to come to terms with just how insanely prolific harassment, and violence, directed at women, primarily from men, is.
Another trend you commonly see, when this topic comes up, is people doing any mental gymnastics possible, to either claim it’s way blown out of proportion, while all people who work in, or study, this subject are pretty much in universal agreement that the reality of it is actually far worse than what we have on record. That, or they cry “but men too” ignoring that men are far less likely to be on the receiving end of this behavior, and also primarily victimized by other men when they are. When I was doing data analysis for the corrections system I found out (through experts on the subject, I didn’t discover this) that, while disparities in antisocial behaviors within different demographics of people based on things like, race/ethnicity/culture/etc., narrow as the economic, and societal status, disparity of that demographic narrows, the same cannot be said for the disparity between men and women. While men of good economic, and societal, standing are less likely to act in antisocial ways over-all, the disparity between them, and women in similar standing, stays roughly the same.
Without society, men in particular, coming to an understanding about this, rather than too just knee-jerk reject it, claiming so many reasons, that seem logical on a very surface level, to “prove” their position, we will never be able to truly begin to tackle the issue at hand. The deepest rooted, worst issues, are between men and women, but men are also the reason for that proportion of violence, and other antisocial behavior, towards men. Where men are more often the victim than women, such as murder, men are also responsible for the vast majority of it. The societal structures that encourage, at least on the environment side, this at a systemic level are also the product of men being largely in control. We have greatest control over the creation of an array of cultures, the most prevalent of which, at the very least, create an environment that allows this continue, sometimes even promoting aspects of it. In order for this to happen men, collectively, are going to have come to terms that the women’s side of this conversation will often have hostility, and many other negative emotions, woven into it, because they are relaying their trauma. While speaking about deeply, personally, emotional things, It is not realistic to expect anything else.
Would you rather be in the wood with a bear rather than a woman because you fear she could rape you? No? Then what the fuck are you even talking about?
I don’t disagree that both men and women do heinous things, but women
don’talmost never physically attack or kill a man when he shuns her advances, but men absolutely attack women every day for shunning a man’s advances, and sometimes women get straight up murdered for it.#NotAllMen, but enough men that many women choose the bear.
This isn’t the 1950s, Scooter. Women aren’t viewed as fragile incapable little things anymore because they never really were.
dsfgasfsaf
yes 80+% of violent crime is perpetrated by men. 95% of murders are done by men. 95% of all sexual violence is done by men, and this comes with the caveat that it is highly under reported.
men absolutely attack women every day for shunning a man’s advances
This is a completely weightless statement, considering that it’s true if as few as 365 men a year do this, out of ~4,000,000,000. In other words, 0.000009125%.
Pretty low bar for shitting on half the world, no?
I’m not shitting on half the population, I’m highlighting the reality of men reacting violently at women to being rejected or ignored. It’s every day. It’s constant. Walk a mile in a young woman’s shoes and you’ll get to experience it firsthand.
It’s every day.
Already established to be a pretty much meaningless statement. It’s also a fact that mothers abuse children every day, on average, too.
Do you think it’s fair to say mothers “constantly” abuse children, based on the above technically-correct fact?
I’ll bet you don’t. But you’re happy to do it about a demo you’re biased against.
It’s constant.
That’s bullshit. You’re just bad at statistics, and/or letting things like social media warp your perception of reality.
A tiny minority of men react violently to rejection.
Walk a mile in a young woman’s shoes and you’ll get to experience it firsthand.
I was raped by a woman, but you won’t find me making dumbass statements implying all women are rapists because of it, because I’m capable of logical, rational thought.
How’s this for “reality” when it comes to gendered violence: research out of Harvard showed that, among male/female relationships where one of the two ‘members’ is domestically violent and the other isn’t, the violent one is the woman over 70% of the time.
You spelled it wrong, the sign should say “Safety is more important than feelings”
This is specifically about the bear meme though. Way too many men feel personally attacked by women not feeling safe around men they don’t know. Instead of thinking about why that is the men cry and attack the women.
and what do we do if somehow safety becomes intertwined into feelings?
What happens then?
elaborate?
Everyone’s safety is more important than anyone’s feelings.
yeah this is something I can get behind
This is it
You agree with the post, why change it?
To use more inclusive language, of course. That’s what we’re all doing now isn’t it?
You’re being willfully ignorant to peoples points
All Safety Matters
Imagine if the police brutality movement was called “Black Lives Matter More Than White People’s Need To Oppress”. It’s working a needless insult into the message.
I’d also be okay with other phrases highlighting how safety is a bigger topic for women than men realize, but not one that makes assumptions about “all men”. Even if I was a guy who largely hated the actions of my own gender, you think you’ll get 50% of the world on board by doing that?
Why? The sign seems fine to me.
I’m a woman and the same way that women feel about men in this whole meme thing, is the exact same way I feel about women…
I don’t trust women within a hairs inch of my life and I would rather be with a bear than a Woman but I bet you I’ll get super downvoted for this opinion.
My wife shares the same opinion. It’s not something she can discuss in her social circles, but she feels like she’s been backstabbed in more awful ways by her fellow women.
When she gets in that pattern, I try to remind her that people tend to suck and you have to be choosy regardless of gender.
I hear you, but as a dude, I feel like there’s significantly more risk of bodily harm from men than than women. This doesn’t mean women are Nice, just less likely to try to rape or murder someone in an alley :(
You’re right… a woman would take you home first before she fucking drugged your tea or whatever the Hell she’s going to do to you. Just because women have less muscles don’t mean they’re not just as psychopathic as any dude murderer. The long-term damage that women can cause on the mind and body is fucking creepy and terrifying. Even creepier and more terrifying when you realize how many women utilize manipulative psychopathic actions in regular day-to-day life. Women are total horror shows for me. Unknowable, unsafe, unreliable, unstable. Terrifying.
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I feel like with men it’s usually more physical and with women it’s more social/mental. And physical is way easier to document and make stats out of
What are we comparing here? Cyberbullying to r*pe? Social exclusion to being thrown down the stairs? Not sure if you’re attempting to draw equivalences or minimize physical harm but that is how I read this
Straight up… it seems like when I tell people that I’m scared of women they want to quantify it or somehow tell me I’m wrong for having the opinion I do it’s fucking hilarious… the same women who would shit on a man for being a man are the same women who couldn’t possibly believe that women are the problem for some folk.
I haven’t said anything to you. I’m not telling anyone they’re wrong. It seems to me the bear discussion revolves around the fact that many if not most women are distrustful of men because of violence, misogyny, etc. Your subjective experience doesn’t change that, but neither is it invalid.
Have you had some negative experiences that led to this?
I’ve never been downvoted anywhere for expressing that opinion. Lemmy especially there’s a huge disparity where saying you’d rather be with a bear than a man is unacceptable, but saying you’d rather be with a bear than a woman? A-okay. Source? I’ve said both. Only one was I not attacked for. Guess which?
Seriously, I’ve expressed my trauma regarding men countless times and every time been attacked for it. I’ve expressed my trauma at the hands of women and not a single downvote or attack or disparaging remark any time. Lemmy has a very clear bias.
I wouldn’t have a single problem with men getting upset about this bear thing if they got equally upset when somebody says something similar or worse about women, but they don’t.It’s because nobody wants to talk about trauma at the hands of women… everybody goes extremely, extremely quiet when the topic of the capable violence of women enters the room. I have a personal feeling, as a woman, that if we talk about all of the tools and tricks and things that women do to manipulate and abuse, less women will get away with it, and women don’t want that, so they stay silent in order to enable basically a fucking gang, operating with impunity, in a way as a woman, I kind of feel held hostage at the sleepover if you know what I mean…
IRL, sure, but on Lemmy that’s not what’s happening. If you talk about trauma at the hands of women on Lemmy, you get outpourings of support and people sharing their experiences as well. Which is good. That should be happening everywhere.
The problem is you can’t do the same thing on Lemmy if you were traumatized by men. Instead, you get down voted to hell, get statistics quoted at you as if that’ll magically fix it, and when surprise, still traumatized after the stats, now you must be a misandrist so your trauma is invalid anyway.I was just hoping one place would exist on the internet where men’s and women’s issues could get equal screen time and be respected just as much, but no, the genders have to be treated like sports teams and if you support one apparently you have to hate the other. I just don’t get why people are like this.
Why does it have to be like this? Because men are constantly vilanized as being the violent, manipulative, and exploitative gender. This man and bear thing sums it up pretty well. Women get a free pass to do a lot of stuff, including women rappers admitting publicly to drugging and stealing from men and not facing any real consequences.
Feminism is used as an excuse to push both transphobia and misandry. Like sure there might be feminists out there who actually want equality, and there are plenty of people who do want equality who aren’t calling themselves feminists. That’s not the majority of people calling themselves feminists though. It’s a shame as feminism started out as seeking equality, or at least pushing back against inequality.
Men being hurt by women is not an excuse for men to hurt women in return. It is possible for both groups to acknowledge they’ve been hurt by each other and work toward a solution. Pushing “they hurt me so they deserve to be hurt” helps nobody, especially when both groups are doing it.
That’s what I’m complaining about. This mindset that being hurt by men/women completely absolves you of the responsibility to allow them to feel safe. Any space dominated by women will be filled with “Well men are responsible for the majority of violence and sexual assault so actually you deserve to feel like shit.” every time a man speaks up. Any space dominated by men will be filled with “Well it makes me feel bad when you discuss the repercussions of your trauma so shut the fuck up.” every time a woman speaks up.
We can have a place where both genders can talk freely about the way these things effect them and the changes we need to make to fix them. The issue is people are only pretending to want such a space. What they really want is the other gender to sit down, shut up, and agree with them uncritically. Because in their head they’re definitely in the right and they’d rather not be confronted with alternate viewpoints from people who have lived experiences they’ll never have.Worse, as a trans woman, you’d think people would be more willing to accept our viewpoints because trans people are some of few people who can have both lived experiences. But no, our experiences are only valid if they 100% allign with the men or women we share them with. Otherwise we’re brushed off like somehow our experience doesn’t count because we had the wrong experience to reaffirm their biases.
On Lemmy, dominated by men, when I say I fear women due to my lived childhood experience as a boy, being taken advantage of while I was still too young to fight back, I’m met with outpourings of support. People talk about why “this is why trans people’s life experience matters.” When I mention later in the same conversation that I also fear men due to my lived experience as a woman and not being able to fight back due the the hormonal muscle loss, suddenly, my experiences don’t count anymore. People think they get to pick and choose which of my experiences were valid and valuable and which aren’t based on whatever reaffirms what they already believe. And of course you can bet the exact same thing happens the other way around when I tell the same story to women.I kind of get what you are saying. People want to defend their in-group when it comes under attack even when it doesn’t deserve that defence.
I think such a space as you describe would need to be built upon the understanding that all genders are capable of shitty things and that no person or group of people is perfect. I don’t think we have that in this world. What we have is a world that’s unfair to everyone, and instead of acknowledging that things need to change for everyone, people are instead bickering over who has it worse and who gets the blame. Blaming this group or that group for all the problems that exist.
What we have at the moment is almost a cold war between different groups of people. Some people who only care about women, others who care only about men, and a select few who care equally about both. I am sure there are other situations where this is the case too. This I think is what people are talking about when they mention the culture wars.
With a bear, really ?
dsfgasfsaf
Nope I definitely trust men more than I trust women. I don’t know what part of what I said sounds like that when I said I don’t trust women, not people.
dsfgasfsaf
I don’t know why you’re being downvoted nobody has ever actually just acquiesced and listened to me so thank you for listening to me and not arguing with me.
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Thanks back to you
Hey there, I’ve just downvoted you. The reason why is that you would have never told this to a woman who said “I definitely trust [women] more than I trust [men]. I don’t know what part of what I said sounds like that when I said I don’t trust [men], not people.”, therefore you’re patronizing this person, dismissing their claims and experiences and unusual and ultimately unworthy of being taken seriously. Yes, of course it sounds like there’s very likely some trauma behind her position, just as there’s trauma behind the women who say they’d choose the bear, but that is no proper reason to dismiss them when they want to use their experiences as a parting point to discuss social issues.
It’s funny that you downvoted this person because you didn’t take the time to wonder if his question was genuinely asked or not … I took the time, as the person who was supposed to be offended in the first place, to tell this person that they were wrong… and then they corrected themselves… it’s almost like you want to be offended on my behalf, but this guy did not upset me as much as your comment currently is upsetting me so that’s fucking hilarious.
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Lol I got you my homie. To be fair, I did feel patronized… but we solved it so that’s wonderful and fantastic and we are still having a good end of our weekend, goddammnit are we not.
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Dismissing someone’s concerns as a mental health issue. That’s actually horrifyingly toxic and completely illogical in this case. This is what people mean when they talk about concern trolling.
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People need to talk to a therapist about their fear of airplanes, whether it’s rational or not. People have to talk to a therapist about car crashes, whether it’s rational or not. If you are worried about something and it causes you anxiety, you should talk to a therapist. The source is not my concern, the help you need is.
That’s not what therapy is for. If there is a real life problem causing you anxiety or anger the solution is to fix that problem of to remove yourself from the situation. Talking to a therapist is not a solution to real life problems. Anxiety, fear, and anger all exist for a reason and they can all be productive emotions in the right context. The only time you should see a therapist for a rational concern is if said concern can’t practically be escaped or fixed.
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sdfsaf
This whole thing is bait.
Anyone engaging on any side of the debate are fools. Any topic antagonizing half the population will somehow stir up some noise.
It’s like saying all women are bad at sport because they don’t train hard enough. It’s ignorant and serves only the purpose of creating a divide in the population.
Stop engaging in the divide.
I see OP noticed how much traction and drama this post stirred up last week so they decided to try it for themselves.
My edge-case where I run into something semi-related to this issue is when I go on my daily walks and get caught walking behind women. I’m a fast walker, it pains me to have to slow down for people and I don’t like having to walk awkwardly around other people walking too slow (especially if they’re just barely slow but not too slow). I realize that the Flash is trapped in a living hell walking behind all these goddamn slow walkers.
I dislike walking behind women especially, nothing that’s their fault, they’re just living life, but because then I get extra self-conscious, like, “Oh geez, what if they think I’m following them or that I’m trying took at their butt or what if I’m making them uncomfortable.” It’s about the implication. Walking slowly isn’t an option because it extends the whole thing out and makes it worse, so then I have to re-route my whole walking routine on the off-chance my very existence might make somebody else uncomfortable.
I’ve tried saying things to them to try to put them at ease like, “I wasn’t planning on raping you,” or “Hey, it’s ok, I’m not a rapist,” but nothing seems to work, if anything, it makes them more uncomfortable. I honestly don’t know what women want from men.
Lol you had me for a moment and then you got to the end. Good trolling
Is your name Michael Jr?
i prefer screaming from a significant distance behind them while rapidly approaching to show that i have something to inform them about.
That’s why I got a shirt that says “^^^not ^^^a RAPIST”. Then when they look back they can tell.
It’s just common sense in this day and age.
Uh, maybe say something that doesn’t include the word “rape” in a sentence?
“Just passing by, in a hurry… sorry to bother you” has always worked just fine for me.
Hey just so you know, I’m totally not going to rape you 😏 Jesus man, that’d creep me out, too.
Got wooshed
Ah, no shame in that. But I admit, I could have at least looked at what community I was trying to make a serious comment in - this one is on me.
Uh, you could literally just go around them and not say anything, or say excuse me or something. Happens all the time, and presumably these walks aren’t at 3am, so most people wouldn’t even question it. Saying, “I’m not a rapist,” is such a weird choice that I’d immediately be on edge.
woosh
Each of those women whose method of self defense is to be tense and walk faster has made the conscious decision not to carry a weapon for her own safety “because she shouldn’t have to”.
Instead of them taking practical steps, they are asking you to reroute around them. To literally bend your day, every day, around their needs so that they don’t have to take any practical steps for their own safety.
You are not forcing those feelings on them. They are taking them on as a form of protest against the nature of reality itself. Women refusing to carry weapons and make themselves safe is like a prisoner on hunger strike against their conditions.
We all dream of a society where women don’t have to be afraid. But if you, a 100% harmless man simply walking to work and giving zero signals of violence, are enough to make them “have to be afraid”, can we really achieve a society where women are unafraid?
It’s a question worth asking. How much effort are you willing to put in for someone who will not help herself?
As soon as I encountered street violence for the first time, I developed the fear. I then solved the fear by starting to carry a weapon. I don’t require all men bigger than me (who can hurt me just like they can hurt a woman, and who are statistically far more likely to to hurt me than they are to hurt a woman) to alter their routes so they never walk behind me. I don’t cower in fear at home either. I didn’t have either of those options in the situation where I developed the fear — living on the streets of Boston. Instead, I got a weapon. It’s my companion. It’s my tool for being safe. It’s my self-regulated solution to the problem of danger.
Women refuse this solution. I have little sympathy for that attitude. Ever since I developed the fear myself, and moved to the obvious solution, I regard women’s fear of me as their own problem. I have a life to live here. I’m not going to add fifteen minutes of walking to my day just so they can feel safer for two minutes without having to lift a finger for it.
I can smell this comment
That’s quite the universal statement. I think first and foremost, men need to learn that they might not be part of the problem, but that there are many very problematic ones among us.
The feeling of general suspicion is what we need to tackle. If you don’t grasp the problems and their magnitude, you will naturally take offense in being suspected.
We need to take this feeling and turn it into anger towards the disgraceful people that are the reason for the suspicion.
So on the contrary, I think men’s feelings actually matter a lot, if you want to reach a world free of misogyny and violence against women.
Sometimes things aren’t your fault but are your problem. And men making excuses like “just locker room talk” and not confronting other men in their lives who do or say toxic things or espouse ideas or personalities that generally make women uncomfortable are our problems, whether or not they are our fault.
I wish I could do this at work. The most inappropriate things I hear in a regular basis are from my own leadership.
I mean, it depends. I am not my own gender police, I don’t see my life with my peers as “shaping the culture of manhood” because having gender in common is basically irrelevant and there is absolute no sense of belonging for me into “manhood” as a gender. We are not talking about contributing to shape the culture of your organization, or club or something, where there are (or should be) some form of shared values.
In fact, I find this whole idea between silly and sexist, where by sexist I mean rigid attributes applied based on gender.
The way I see it is that I - as a man - have absolutely nothing to do to help with the overall problem and the only way that I can help improve is by not being part of it (in this case, not assault, rape, stalk, harass etc.). That’s pretty much the end of it.
I have no heard a man express what you would call a toxic opinion in like twenty years. And yet women are still just as afraid. Crime rates are at an all-time low, yet women are more afraid than ever.
Whether it’s my problem is my decision. Primarily, it is women’s problem. And they have practical steps they can take to fix that problem. I refuse to make someone else’s problem my own problem, if that other person is ignoring steps they themselves can take to fix it.
I’m all for helping out, but only people who have done the first step themselves.
Women’s general attitude toward this is “It’s my problem but it’s your responsibility to solve it” and I say fuck that. I have my own problems to solve. My life is, in fact, absolutely full of problems that take all my energy to solve.
I have no heard a man express what you would call a toxic opinion in like twenty years.
Your personal experience is not representative of the experience of the rest of the world. Though I am very glad that this has been your experience!
You’d think that it would appear on video maybe once, somewhere on the internet, if it were happening. Can you link to a place where men are saying these things? If not, does that indicate something about the rate at which it’s happening?
I can link to videos of UFOs and videos of dogs walking on their hind legs. Are these defining our culture? If not, what does that imply about something you can’t find a video of?
https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/08/us/donald-trump-tape-transcript.html
I just start kissing them. It’s like a magnet. Just kiss. I don’t even wait. And when you’re a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab ’em by the pussy. You can do anything.
Or for another example, see Andrew Tate and all the idiots who follow him.
This, except that shouldn’t be anger, really.
Anger is a feeling that leads to alienation, and an alienated beast is the most dangerous one.
We should be on a watch for potentially dangerous behaviors and offer help so that people gently unlearn their ways.
That’s not to say people who have already committed some form of abuse shouldn’t be punished, but that we should fight for those who can become dangers and support those who recognize their mistakes and genuinely strive to do better.
The feeling of general suspicion is what we need to tackle.
I agree. This general suspicion is not good. As Bruce Lee says, “Do not be tense, but ready”.
I recommend women take concrete steps to protect their own safety, so they don’t have to be constantly on high alert. That’s a terrible way to live.
When people justify racism with statistics: That’s stupid and you’re a bigot
When people justify sexism with statistics: Only one side’s feelings matter! I’m going to post this divisive meme everywhere!1!
Edit Sexists know how to downvote, but not present a logical argument.
I’m doing my part by playing with Arch Linux in my mom’s basement instead of going outside. Where women are. And Arch Linux isn’t. I use Arch btw.
