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I can’t wait for blue conservatives to blame Bernie Sanders for whatever fuckup they do next.
Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron. Trump may be even more pro Israel…
Ah yes he will give them unlimited weapons and money to bomb children. Oh wait
We know that Harris will let the zionists do whatever they want, whenever they want, however they want, no matter what it costs the US. Your saying theres much difference between that and whatever Trump plans is dumb. Is Trump going to double kill people and double steal their land?
Anybody voting against Harris over Gaza is a moron
I think war crimes surrogates are worse than morons.
You have good points and valid reasons to be upset in this election. If we don’t see change in this administration now, why should we expect it going forward?
That said, I would like you to consider a perspective shift on the impact of voting. Put yourself in the shoes of a politician. What is your bottom line? It’s to get reelected.
If you aren’t in a position of power, you can’t pass any bills. You can’t push any agendas. You can’t stop wars. You affect nothing. This is true for politicians, CEOs, Popes, dictators, board presidents, school principles, and homeowners association presidents.
In order to keep that power, you need to make your keys to power happy. In a democracy, there are a lot of keys- those are your voting blocks. The rich, the military, unions, families, students, different ethnicities, different religions- you need to calculate which blocks are most likely to get you reelected.
Now a lot of people wonder why is it that American election campaigns seem to go on forever. They take years. This is because candidates are looking to see who they can bring in to their side. Voters who they don’t please go to their opposition.
Let’s fast forward to after the election. You have won the presidency and are eager to get to work- but guess what, in 4 years you will need to do this all over again. This time, you look at the blocks who voted for you. These blocks were the ones who successfully got you in power, and you want to keep them happy. It’s easier to keep voters than to flip voters, this is the incumbents advantage.
You look at your voting blocks, and you notice there is a large chunk of your previous “supporters” (not that they like you necessarily, just that they voted for you) who want to end arms sales to Israel. If large enough, this group will be pivitol to your next victory. You may have run on a pro Israel stance, but if your electorate needs you to change, you will change.
This doesn’t mean protest sit outs aren’t effective. Michigan had a large vote for Palestine in Biden’s primary campaign. After that result came through, the administration took on more moderate rhetoric. It’s empty, but a first signal nonetheless. If this happened in Illinois or Washington State, his campaign would have ignored it, but since Michigan is a swing state, they paid attention.
In this election, I’m voting for Harris. However, down ballot I’m voting for pro-palestine candidates. Trump’s voting blocks clearly favor Israel, but Harris has a divide she needs to address, and if she sees enough voters voting pro-palestine down ballot, she is much more likely to change her course.
For a deeper look into power structures and how leaders are influenced, I’d recommend watching CGP Grey’s 20 minute video on the rules for Rulers.
There is so much nuance in this discussion that it’s difficult to put all counterpoints into a Lemmy comment while I’m sitting on the pot, but I hope this gives you some more questions to consider as you make the bridge between your values, ideal outcomes, realistic outcomes, and pragmatic strategies for getting that done.
You really think there’s a complete carte blanche from either the current administration or will likely be under Harris? Don’t get me wrong. Israel has gone way overboard, but me assure you it could be a lot worse.
Infact, the actions of Trump during his administration included moving the US embassy in an extremely controversial move and even the war criminal Netanyahu meets Trump personally - when he is not even President.
Are you saying that taking action like not voting for Harris, which will help enable a Trump victory, is the correct course of action to reduce Palestinian and Lebanese suffering? Your approach doesn’t make any sense if your goal is to reduce suffering.
“It could be a lot worse” is ZERO comfort to my neighbor who lost relatives in Israel’s bombings. Do you honestly think that’s a winning campaign slogan to get him to vote for her? Or to me who personally sees this suffering?
Oh cool. Do you ever read the comments on the Israel times? You shoild check them out and look at who they exclusively want elected and see Harris’s victory as a collapse of Israeli US relations.
Let’s get Trump elected so Israel can get what it wants.
Hopefully your neighbor doesn’t have too many relatives.
Yes because there has been and she has said she will continue to do so.
But Donnie said Harris hates Israel.
Donnie says a lot of stuff. It comes down to whether you can bank on his hatred of jews vs his hatred of muslims and his love of bribe money. Its some comedic cold comfort to me that a large part of his base are anti semitic white supremacists and they are having a hard time squaring their vote with support for the state of Israel.
Comedy gold, made with the gold tooth fillings of dead gazan civlians. (to be fair, yes-- the dead babies and children are less likely to have fillings)
You make an interesting observation and I’ve wondered about the seeming (if not cooperation, certainly working towards the same goals) of anti-semitic white supremacists (“Christian Identity” etc) and far right Christian zionists who believe “jews are gods Chosen People.” It seems they’re just two sides of the same coin.
Bernie is such a good guy. The Dems have done him dirty so many times, they are currently continuing to support many harmful policies but he understands what’s at stake and he puts all of that aside to do the best he can.
He doesn’t have to do this. He’s 83 years old and while his cognitive health is outstanding for his age, someone his age doesn’t need to be on this grind for us. He probably won’t stop until he’s forced to due to his health. I love the guy and it’s a shame we weren’t given the chance to see him take the presidency.
He is a leader.
I remember that old footage of him in Burlington in the 70’s, talking to random kids in the mall, asking them what was important to them–drug policy, free speech, good schools–and just talking to them about how they could make a difference. From the bully pulpit, he would have been transformative.
I like one of the comments on that video. Some people do a filibuster in Washington and they read from the phone book or read a recipe book, Bernie talks about the law at issue, straight policy for 8 and 1/2 hours, and it’s coherent.
Agree 100%, but he’s not a god. He can be wrong, same as everyone else. I think he played this wrong.
He’s always been a social imperialist and had the same murderous nazi foreign policy as the rest of the state. He was always a compromise for leftists.
Just look at how he acted during the recent coups/attempted coups in south america.
Its hard to be informed about that stuff without searching for it very very explicitely. Where do you get your news on the regular?
Most of Lemmy thinks you should vote against Kamala on principle against genocide and if Trump gets elected and makes the genocide far worse than it would’ve been under Kamala that that is a preferred outcome and somehow they won’t have blood on their hands.
They think it’s better to make things worse if you personally can avoid blame for it on a technicality.
Everyone, including you, has a line, where you will say, “no more, I will not participate in this evil”. Maybe for you its having American kids in the US lined up on a wall and shot if they shoplift, or something. For some people its having the Dem candidate openly support mass murder. The fact that your line doesnt match others is natural and is no reason to denigrate those other people.
You’ll get to where we are soon enough.
Your actions will produce more harm than good if Trump gets elected. What a privileged life you must live to be able to make a stand on principle — even though that will produce a worse outcome for the people you supposedly care about. The additional blood that will be shed is very much on your hands.
You don’t get to just walk away from the situation absolved of guilt because of your so called principles.
- Is it me or Harris who made the choice to support a far right wing war that so many dems are having trouble with? Its Harris. She has people on staff that tell her the odds. She is choosing this.
- The focus of her ground game is courting republicans-- not progressives, and going to the right on issues to woo them. She’s moving the party right and in doing so she keeps losing ground in the polls. Every day is worse polling for her. But its my fault huh.
- You have no idea what my actions are.
Most of Lemmy is doing mental gymnastics just like this to convince themselves that voting for the person doing genocide makes them anti genocide.
I don’t believe they’re speaking in good faith. I think they just don’t give a shit about human lives when they’re brown and across the world.
a vote isn’t an endorsement. Pretending the US system is some kind of idealic democracy where you are presented a platter of issues to vote on and can do those independently is delusional. We live in a perpetual trolley problem. Not pulling the lever is far more evil here.
a vote isn’t an endorsement
The sky is green
Politicians view it as an endorsement. When they get elected they say “the people have spoken” and act like they have a mandate. Bush pressed on with his Iraq war and privatizing social security after getting re elected despite those being unpopular and people voting for him in spite of those policies. Trump claimed the people supported him and hence wouldn’t release his tax records etc.
If Harris wins she won’t feel chastised on Gaza. She said she will continue Biden’s plan even though she was given space to say what she would do differently. Even saying something mild like “Knowing what I know now, I would not have said what Biden said about Palestinians lying about death counts,” and it would have mollified many people.
Again this a delusional view. No democrat has ever been like “oh I lost an election, better adopt more leftwing policies”. Because nonvoting is not clear messaging it will never be effective messaging.
I disagree. The Tea Party tanked the 2010 and 2012 election for republicans but it forced them to go hard right ever since and they got everything they wanted.
Democrats put electability over all else and compromised their principles, which is why they are in a toss up right now against an unpopular Trump with unpopular policies. This should have been an easy win, but Biden avoided meeting any Palestinians whatsoever and Harris sadly kept that up. Even minimal pandering would help and she won’t even do that. It’s not so much that she’s doing nothing for my community but Biden actively would throw insults at it (“I have zero trust for Palestinians”) and Harris won’t even distance herself from those hateful remarks. Just say he was wrong to say that and she’d get a ton of votes, I don’t even think she would lose Zionist votes like she’s afraid of.
Excuse me did you just say the tea party succeeded? The #1 goal of the tea party was to eliminate deficit spending. They have done the opposite. They cut taxes and blew up the deficit.
What an insane example of a strategy to mimic. Their “protest” backfired on them spectacularly. It also doesn’t even account for the fact the tea party was wholly fabricated from like the Koch brothers and Fox News.
the tea aparty didnt seem to be about goals, it was about grievance. Seemed to be the birth of maga. But I admit I wasnt listening to them very closely.
The tea party took control of the Republican Party and forced every noncompliant Republican out via the primaries. It handed control of GOP to Koch brothers and no Republican in office today dares to cross Fox News. They succeeded in that goal even if those policies harmed the country (and they don’t care).
Yeah. You can protest against the politician you voted for.
AIPAC has a stranglehold on our entire system of government and it wont let it go or allow that to change. Protest has become meaningless.
You’re protest doesn’t matter to them, only your vote. It’s not like you’re going to vote for the Republican or third party candidate.
America voting for the lesser evil since 1792.
It’s not the time to stop now. But I better see all of you on the streets with signs on November 6th.
For real.
Today, massive supporter for Harris.
Post-election, I shall go back to being a massive critic.
Shitty situation all around. Once heard politics are like public transportation. Won’t give me a door-to-door ride to the destination I’m aiming for, so I’ll take it to get as close as possible.
Boy just wait until I have zero leverage or voice. Then I’ll show em
That’s a bad headline. Watch his video, he makes a much more nuanced argument.
Gaza is hardly even an issue on the ballot, you’re picking between slow genocide and fast genocide.
Slow genocide is better though. We all get that right?
Certainly gives us more time to try to do something about it, yeah.
Certainly gives us more time to try to do something about it, yeah.
The time to do something about it is during an election. Politicians couldnt care less what you think after they have your vote. They dont need your money.
If there was a part of the election to do something about it that time was the Primaries. The primaries that only like 30M people vote in every election. Right now your choices are between death and more death but also closer to home.
Harris could still change her mind at the last minute.
So you’re going to get Harris to change her stance by making sure she doesn’t become president? And because it was also stated that elections are the time to change them, you also imply she cannot change her mind after election?
Thats some ass logic right there.
Well she can change her stance on the weapons shipments any time she wants. She keeps losing support every day in the polls, so I suggest she stop digging and try something else. Or she is going to lose. Theres a lot of progressives who will vote for her if she stops the shipments and wont vote for her if she stays the course. This is her choice.
You want to talk to someone about ass logic, talk to her.
99 more years at the current rate.
Slow genocide is better
Frankly no. Oppression like this is worse than slaughter. There’s a reason Gazans are telling reporters and social media they are relieved when their loved ones die, because they’re literally starving and in pain and squalor.
Which one should you prefer slowly genocide by starvation, diseases.
Or
Fast genocide by increased bombing and worse weapons.
I don’t think this is a choice anyone would want to choose from.
Then we agree that Gaza isnt a partisan choice, but to answer your rhetorical I would choose slow simply because there will always be an avenue for justice as long as some of Palestine remains.
Gaza is not on ballot I agree. But trying to convince people who don’t wish to participate in a genocide by telling them that their concerns don’t matter is wrong.
Israel has declared if not by words surely by actions that they won’t stop as long as Palestine remains.
If it matters to you then you should be making intelligent choices to reduce harm to an absolute minimum instead of getting angry and stupid enough to supporting NeoHitler, either directly or indirectly.
How different would he be from all the dictators and despots US has propped up elsewhere in the world. World will still turn, sun will still rise. All dictators die, all dictatorship ends. This is not end of the world.
Oh yeah I mean by that logic you might as well also put a cactus in your ass. Why? No need to ask questions, after all, the world will still turn. The sun will still rise tomorrow. Anally insert a cactus right away.
Sure when that strikes my fancy, for now I will pass.
The fantasy world the zero-tolerance high-ground morality angels live in is as dangerous as the one MAGA lives in, and ironically has the same victims. They proudly polish their halos nice and shiny while they let the world burn.
Don’t support genocide, it’s as simple as that!
By the way: Voting isn’t actually support. The American system is not set up in a way where votes actually add to the power of the Presidential office. On the other hand, making a deliberate choice not to act does mean supporting whatever happens without your action, which could be genocide. This means YOU HAVE TO VOTE HARRIS IN ORDER TO NOT SUPPORT GENOCIDE. The socialism angels are hypocrites.
there are two facts about this election
- there are only two outcomes—0.0% chance for a third party win
- both candidates have a bad stance on the genocide
so neither outcome will help with the genocide. acting like voting third party helps in any way shape or form is disingenuous at best. so what should you do?
my argument is that you should vote for the person you can hope to convince on this issue. phone calls, protests, social media, whatever means you have… which of these candidates is more likely to respond to any kind of public pressure about this?
Harris might be responsive, and let’s be honest, she might not be. but you know for a fact that it’s definitely not the fucking orange turd. Natenyahu wants him to win. how can you ignore that?
which of these candidates is more likely to respond to any kind of public pressure about this?
neither. 0.0% chance for either candidate.
i only voted for kamala because she’s a woman and even though she’s an awful candidate at least we can get it out of our collective system, show little girls they can be president, and the neoliberal status quo is probably still better than Trump
i’m not entirely sure on that because I think Kamala is more likely to lead us into a war with Russia… but Trump is more volatile in general I think
Amazing that you at least did the overwhelming obvious right thing even though your reasons are awful
i think breaking the barrier of sex in terms of male/female president is a powerful thing. there’s been so many women throughout history that could have been judith pulgars, politically speaking, and ended up getting pushed into more subservient positions
that’s the main reason. i dont think that’s an awful reason
as for the russian war thing, i rather like living in a pre-nuclear-war society.
It just implies that looking at the candidates the biggest and most important difference you see is that one is a woman.
Like, it’s great that you did vote for that woman as she also happens to be in favour of women having rights, lgbtq+ people having rights, doesn’t want mass deportions, still wants there to be elections in the future and a painfully long list of stark differences like that. It’s just impressive that none of that mattered to you, or that you are unaware of it
i’m more cynical about her. it’s not that i don’t think gay rights and women rights aren’t important. they are. but to me, the primary issues i care about, in order of importance
a) probability of war
b) attitude towards immigrants
c) economic position
d) foreign policy in general
so for example I think Kamala is probably more likely to get us into war than Trump is. That gives points to Trump.
on the immigration front, I don’t have any illusions about where the national conversation is going. I was brought here to this country illegally as a small child. I grew up here illegal and it wasn’t until my early 20s that I managed to naturalize
so i’ve been embedded in immigrant communities, with a lot of illegals sprinkled in, and have been paying attention to immigration news for virtually all of life
i can only think of two politicians who have done something meaningful for illegals. Reagan and Obama. Reagan of course gave amnesty to millions of illegals. Obama enacted the DACA policy, which wasn’t nearly as broad as amnesty, but it was definitely a good thing that helped hundreds of thousands of people. but “immigration reform” has been promised my whole life by DNC and never delivered. best was the half-assed DACA
But let’s look at rhetoric from Biden. During campaign in 2020 he advocated for a “compassionate approach” and was “pushing for immigration reform”. he promised to halt the construction of “the Wall tm”
What about the last couple years? He expanded construction of the wall which he timed with a photoshoot with Customs and Border Patrol at the southern border. He also went on TV and started using the word illegal - which is a term Democrats historically haven’t used. I don’t think it’s offensive or anything- but it’s telling to show how the overton window has sharply been shoved to the right
Now look at Biden’s successor - Kamala - the woman I voted for begrudgingly. go to her website and look at the policies and you will see zilch about compassionate approach or immigration reform. today it’s “security and strong border”
right now over 65% of all Americans (not just GOP) support deporting all illegal immigrants. Something absurd to say even a decade ago. Majority of Americans support a policy which would effectively have the military going around house to house in order to put over 10 million people in camps, which they would stay at for years while the government tries to figure out the complex and expensive logistical challenge of moving millions of people out of the country (Germans had this same problem back in first half of the 1900s. they came up with a controversial solution to that question, of course)
so i’m not saying kamala is equal or worse than trump on this. trump is partly at fault for the rise in this change. but i think long term it won’t make a difference who wins in this field. either way immigrants are screwed, so it doesn’t really matter to me in this election
economic position, i think not gonna matter much. the whole “tax breaks for first time homeowners” from Kamala is yet another bailout to the banks at the expense of regular people. Trump put in sanctions on China, raising prices for Americans… Biden kept them in place and put some more. I don’t think this is much different. the reductionist “tax the rich” is a nice slogan but without meaning. as long as the government has a money tap funneling public money to leeches, no amount of taxes will ever filter down to help the working class
foreign policy in general. again, i don’t see much of a difference. china from above is a good example. iran is another. Obama actually came up with a revolutionary deal- bringing the Iranians back into the fold. Trump torpedoed that deal in spectacular fashion and then moved the American embassy to Jerusalem. Biden maintained the “get fucked” attitude towards Iran and went to Tel Aviv in Oct of last year to bend the knee to Netanyahu.
so to summarize
for the issues i mentioned, which are the ones that matter to me, i think long term the choice of candidate isn’t going to influence anything significantly either way. the zietgiest is headed in a certain direction and i don’t think either candidate has the capacity or willingness to meaningfully change the course of things
so then we get to why did i vote for kamala. because I think it’ll be inspiring to girls and women across the country. it’ll implicitly let them know they are equal and are able to accomplish anything, even the highest office in the country
i think that alone is worth voting for her. and of course Trump is a bit of a wild card and I prefer stability.
i think breaking the barrier of sex in terms of male/female president is a powerful thing.
I agree with that, and its long overdue, but if she fumbles badly she may set everything backward.
neither. 0.0% chance for either candidate.
This level of cynicism is unwarranted. Sure it might be low, but for Harris it’s at least 0.1%.
with the current stranglehold the pro-Israeli lobby has on American politics (includes both GOP and DNC) even 0.1% is a stretch
AIPAC even brags about it: https://aipacorg.app.box.com/s/t8vvqt7evxvgkzn5jktpwejate6oxo0y
98% of AIPAC endorsed candidates won their election in 2022. if you are a politician and you say something mildly critical of Israel they will go to war with you and do everything so that your opponent wins
Israel has figured out how to hack American democracy. There is no going back at this point. We are a pro-Israel country for the foreseeable future, regardless of which candidate wins this election or the next one or the next one
"Vote for the candidate who will continue to fund a genocide to show you dont support genocide "
Man yall will do anything to avoid a socialist movement.
I see what you’re trying to do drag but it just doesn’t track.
Voting isn’t actually support
On the other hand, making a deliberate choice not to act does mean supporting whatever happens without your action
Interesting. So, by drag’s logic, a Trump voter isn’t responsible for supporting Trump, but a nonvoter is.
It’s amusing to see the kinds of ridiculous knots y’all tie yourselves into trying to twist around language in an attempt to resolve your cognitive dissonance and punch left.
What they think their vote contributes to:
Once you are under dictatorship, you can’t vote to hold anyone accountable. Vote for Trump and you won’t have a say in what happens to Gaza. Or anything else.
yea, but you get to brag to all the other inmates in the political prison yard that you stood up for your principles by not voting!
They’ll be in the same political prisons as their primary enemies, the classic liberal Dems.
LOL i can’t wait to get in fistfights with them
Fuck the fist fights, I’ll be playing human shield with their corpses while I sneak out in the cadaver wagon.
Oh Lemmy. Don’t ever change ❤️
Am I allowed physical violence to the purported leftist idiots who land us there? I’ll piss on their cracked skulls while reminding them we have the same values but I’m practical and trying to survive to fight for them.
You’d fight us but not Republicans because we destroy the notion that you’re the good guys. You both want to preserve the status quo, with libs preferring marginally less grotesque methods of enforcement, and superficially opposing the fucked up methods Republicans prefer to employ. Good cop vs. bad cop routine, and you hate us because we’re pointing out that the good cop wants us imprisoned too.
Let’s be real, in actual prison, you’d be making aliances with the skinheads and guards 15 minutes in, then call on them to do your dirty work instead of doing any fighting yourself.
Same dynamic you’re employing right now actually: “Fall in line or I’ll sic the Republicans on you!” while fantasizing about the left getting sent to the camps for daring to oppose your brand of status quo preservation…just like Republicans, but less honest about your intentions.
Dipshits of both lib and fash varieties fail to recognize themselves as allies in defence of capitalism, imperialism, patriarchy, and white supremacy, yet somehow you always instinctively know who is more important to fight, the left.
The SPD voted for the concentration camps the KPD died in. Same dynamic will play out here.
You defended Biden for not closing the migrant camps, understanding that you would never spend a second inside one. We opposed them the entire time, not caring that they’d eventually be used for us.
Smart fascists understand how useful your brand of performative opposition is to legitimizing the system that keeps the treats flowing, so even if they throw did your ass in prison to appease their base (they won’t), you’ll be let go. You’re too useful an idiot for keeping the real opposition (communists) from taking power.
Oh hey everybody, it’s the toughest guy on the internet! What’s it like being so damn tough?
If Harris wants my vote she should at least try the bare minimum to get it. Her campaign wouldn’t let Palestinians endorse her at the DNC. Her entire message to our community is; we make no promises at all but Trump is worse. That’s no comfort to those in my community who had relatives die in bombings by US-supplied weapons. “Trump didn’t kill my relatives. Biden did.”
Why is Harris so bad at this outreach? All she has to do is make some bland comments and it would win more people over, and she can’t even do that because she thinks being a hardliner against our community will win over a few Republican votes. Clinton tried that in 2016 and it failed.
“In four years, you don’t have to vote again. We’ll have it fixed so good, you’re not gonna have to vote.” - Trump
Right so people should vote Green to hold Harris accountable while they still can.
Exactly! Because when she loses and Trump wins… Hey… Wait a second…
Darn you are correct. We should not hold politicians accountable after all. Please downvote the person above me who suggested it.
We can always hold “we’ll organize and push her left after the election” people accountable. If they’re honest, then more people will organize, big win. If they’re not, then they’ll be so ashamed that they make new accounts.
Protest voting doesn’t work when the candidate you are protesting is the least worst option. Democrats that will not vote out of principle have been conned as badly as MAGA republicans. End of story.
I was a Bernie-or-Bust-er in 2016 because I was confident Hilary was going to win with or without my vote. I deeply regret taking that stance and feel like I let down every woman who’s lost rights to their bodily autonomy, every family who was separated at the border, everybody whose life was lost or ruined due to the Trump administration’s incompetent response to the COVID-19 outbreak, and everybody else who has been harmed by the Trump administration.
Don’t be like me. It sucks having to vote for the lesser of two evils but that’s how our system works and not voting or voting third-party isn’t going to change that but it does run the risk of things getting a lot worse.
Can I ask what state you were voting from in 2016?
TX at the time. Generally regarded as solidly red. However, looking at the numbers in '16 and '20, I wouldn’t be surprised if everybody in the state who had either voted third-party or not at all because of the belief that their vote wouldn’t make a difference would have indeed been enough to potentially flip the state.
I’m hoping this will be the year we see Texas flip blue. That would be beautiful.
“Gaza is not the only issue” should not be the takeaway here:
“Even on this issue [Gaza], Donald Trump and his right-wing friends are worse,” Sanders said in the six-minute video, which he posted to X. He noted that Republicans have fought to block humanitarian aid to Gaza and that Trump — who has praised Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu — has suggested Gaza would be a great site for beachfront development.
Yeah, when framed that way, it’s a reminder we’ve had to vote for compromise all along… And it’s fucking fine and we have a mostly functioning society.
And it’s fucking fine
This is part of the problem with America. Centrists are so self centered that they will condone mass murder of nameless masses to keep their personal gravy train rolling.
It’s not fine. It’s such a privilege on your part to claim that the status quo is lovely. I’ve been to funerals for people who had their relatives die in Gaza. It’s tearing apart the community watching bodies of Gazan children on social media and Harris saying she wouldn’t have changed a thing.
If you want to engage those bad faith accounts, don’t respond to the Gaza thing; that’s a trap. Instead, ask about other issues like climate issues, housing issues, food insecurity problems, etc. ask them what their third party candidate has planned for that and ask for evidence of these plans. They’ll move goalposts and attempt to get back on Gaza. Keep them coming back to those other issues that affect Americans daily. Many of those accounts are here to derail conversation. Derail them in turn and force the conversation back on track.
Or do what I do and downvote then block, then post the occasional reminder that most of those accounts are bad faith at best.
I know. I mean I’m not a huge fan of Harris’ Gaza stance. Honestly I’m not sure why it’s political at all to call what Israel is doing wrong. But come on, Trump will be 100 times worse. And that’s just on the Israel/Gaza thing. I’m not sure how you can look at these two and decide that Harris is wrong enough about the Gaza thing that you come to the conclusion that either a third party or Trump vote is warranted. Which makes me believe is not genuine and likely foreign agent spreading chaos and misinformation.
It’s because there is a large, internally-polled segment of the Pennsylvania electorate who are Jewish and sympathetic to Israel.
Harris can’t afford to not court them.
I have no doubt she vehemently dislikes Bibi and would wish to cut aid.
Not only that, but AIPAC is a serious force that has demonstrated their willingness to aggressively smear every candidate who speaks out against Israel; they’ve already done this for a number of races.
Harris is basically trapped here. The best thing she can do is stay vague until after the election, when she might actually have the power to do something about it. No one on Palestine’s side has anything to gain from her losing votes over it.
Yeah this is basically my thoughts as well. Stuck between Iraq and a hard place (I had to do the Hot Shots joke here… too fitting).
But seriously, AIPAC has way too much power in American politics. And your comment about Palestine is spot on. She is walking a very thin line, but this is the nature of politics and nuance. That orange fucker has no clue about any of this.
This is the correct reason and the reason why the genocide will continue no matter who is elected.
Aipac has bought enough of american politicians that it has rendered votes worthless.
People should vote on matters other than this for with any outcome US sponsored genocide is inevitable.
So you want to argue in bad faith.
It’s fine to debate the idea that Gaza should not be the most important issue this election, but if your plan is to troll people and do fallacious debate then you’re not helping anyone. If you want to sell out Palestinians for personal gain, just be honest about it.
Not voting for a candidate is not the only, nor the most effective way to push a party to change positions on an issue you care about.
People should vote how they want, but should continue to push to replace First past the post voting in their state so people can vote how they want and still count their vote against the republicans.
Electoral reform is such a no brainer, it’s a shame the democratic party puts it’s desire for easy wins over the security and stability of the nation.
