When I “request” time off, it’s not a request. It’s a notification. I will be gone. The work needed to be done is done or will be done by the deadlines. Any emergencies that arise in the meantime will be dealt with when I’m back. If my request is denied, that’s not my problem, I will still be gone.
Exactly. If I give you sufficient notice, 2 weeks is probably a good minimum, and no one else is taking off at that time, that’s a you problem if you can’t cover it. If your team is not structured such that you can honor PTO with sufficient notice, you are not offering PTO. You are lying about benefits.
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Yeah, I’ve worked places where I could tell exactly how many more man hours we were short, and I knew the managers were doing it deliberately for a bonus. It’s not for the workers, it’s not for the customers, it’s for shareholders.
As an employer (and thus an evil capitalist pigdog etc.) I’ve always applied the rule of the thumb that “twice the holiday duration as notice” is polite to the employer and your colleagues who will cover for you - so two days notice for a day off, two weeks notice for a week off, a month’s notice for two weeks off, etc.
“Polite” does not mean “mandatory” of course - circumstances can dictate that sometimes you have to break the rule of thumb and that’s fine.
Up to two weeks it makes sense, over 2 weeks it’s a disaster waiting to happen. Unless you have a really well organized boss or some software to help you out, they will forget and no matter if you have written proof you will appear as the one who left despite everything or you will have to fight for it or cancel because you reminded them just before leaving. I’m lucky I’m in the EU so we have mandatory vacations
Is “owning a calendar” really the bar we’re setting for being really well organized these days?
I mean, nowadays “owning” anything already seems like a very high bar. Moreover bosses need a constant reminder of everything or they’ll “forget” it, especially if it’s something like paid time off
Yeah that’s my approach too. If I want to be available then I will be, but if I’m off, I’m off, the pto is my right to turn off work and do “me” for the day.
You will also be without a job. Requests can be honored if they are timely and follow the rules but everyone can’t be off before forth of July or Christmas. There’s usually a process to be fair to others and the business.
Attention readers: before you make the mistake of digging through this thread, recognize that this poster is literally some shitty small manager of like 30 employees. Yet they talk like some deranged billionaire. Hysterical.
Psycho. Going through posting history? Blocked.
Only total losers cry about people digging through their post history. Hey kiddo, it’s public information. Maybe don’t be a shit poster?
Also this is extra rich because while I do dig through post histories, I didn’t actually look at yours. You posted in this thread about how many employees you manage. Dumbass.
30 employees is above average
Where I live national holidays and Sunday are time off for almost everyone, and Saturdays are usually half-days. Yes, that means almost all stores and businesses are closed. If a business wants people to work then for one reason or another (emergency services, public transit operators, entertainment, food service, hotel staff etc) it is paid as overtime, which generally means about 1.5x the rate. If I could work for 1.5x my rate I’d probably be incentivized to not take the day off, which is exactly how this should work.
Denying people PTO is anti-labor and you frankly should be ashamed to be peddling such bullshit here.
I am not peddling that at all. You are not reading critically. I manage a crew of people that have a CBA with allocated PTO. They know their limitations and there is almost never a conflict because I manage those shortages and still fulfill what our tasks are.
However, the discussion is “I should be able to take whatever day I want whenever I want”. I do not think that is a professional attitude or a team attitude. Full stop. There is nothing more to that other than I see it as a roadblock for promotion and that attitude does not last long where I am from. This is also not the first company I have worked for in this industry. I was a front like worker for 9 years before becoming management.
I should be able to take whatever day I want whenever I want
Yes, workers should be able to take whatever day off they want. If a manager is incapable of managing that through extra staffing and incentives, that’s a manager’s problem. “Professional attitude”, “team attitude” is literally manipulative corporate speak designed to get workers to forfeit their rights for no benefit of their own.
that attitude does not last long where I am from.
That means you are from a shitty place for workers, and trying to push that shitty attitude on others. That’s all.
If you want to be able to take off whatever day you want, surely you should also expect to be paid less because there has to be an extra employee on payroll that comes in with near-zero notice whenever you text “not coming in” in the morning?
fuck the business. they want fair treatment they can provide fair compensation.
Well we offer above market compensation. As well as benefits day one. So we are kind of that company.
wooow youre only exploiting people slightly less than you could be? color me impressed. and benefits day one? how generous of you not forcing people to wait for health care that they may require to continue living. like i said, fuck the company.
Ooooh. Were you giving benefits before you thought of applying? What kind of criticism is that? And it’s exploitation compensating people more than they will get somewhere else? Did you consider this criticism before typing it?
I imagine this person thinks you’re boasting being #2 on the human centipede proud to not be #3 or #4. You’re eating shit either way.
Does no one on Lemmy work? Is it a bunch of neck beards in their parent’s basements? When does showing up for work become a human centipede? Absolutely dumb analogy.
benefits
Like not being allowed to take time off?
I never said you never got time off. There is just an order to things.
“There is an order to the world” is a phrase uttered only by those enjoying the current order as applicable to them, to someone whom they clearly see is not enjoying the same. It is the taunt of tyrants, slavers, bigots, strike-breakers, fascists, and genocidal maniacs the world over.
Order alone is not an axiomatic good, and anyone who treats it like it is inherently worth protecting, or like an orderly system is an invalid target for criticism solely for being orderly, is either naïve or is experiencing an unbalanced “order” in their favour. I’ll let other readers decide which they think you are.
Absolutely an NPC comment. Go ahead. Change the sky to green to show you “can change into whatever”. No awareness.
everyone can’t be off before forth of July or Christmas
Why not? I’d argue most work isn’t so important it absolutely must be done on Christmas.
What we do saves lives
You run a hospital? An ambulance/paramedic service? A veterinary surgery? A live tissue courier service?
I will not discuss specifics. However you’re in the neighborhood.
They need me more than I need them. I put in a little extra time here and there. I roll with management’s last minute emergencies that arise from their lack of planning and communication, and I course correct with knowledge of real world logistics that they never think of, saving their bacon and making them look better than they should. I am flexible and agreeable and get my work done regularly and efficiently.
If they fire me I’ll happily collect unemployment and watch them implode.
I too write in the notes “this is a notification, not a request”. It obviously depends on the type of job you have but I’ve never gotten flak for it.
How to use PTO:
Another thing I’m not American enough to understand.
American here, so you have paid time off but greedy American capitalism boss can deny for any reason. Not enough staff, busy company time, favoritism, or simply fuck you I dont like you.
Some companies can give you monies at the end of year for your paid time off, but some don’t and it’s wasted due to greedy capitalism boss and given to the company casue companies have better rights then people.
For example my company and boss I work for is cool about giving time off when requested, however starting next year my company will not pay out unused PTO because reasons.
Hope this helps!
An old job of mine would constantly deny my PTO requests. It was weird - I’d always have to call in sick on those days anyway. Funny how the world works.
Yeah, the problem is with the wording. This isn’t a request. It’s a notice. I will not be here these days. Prepare for my absence or don’t, up to you. Again, I won’t be here to deal with the fallout in either case.
I had a greedy capitalist boss once who wanted to deny unpaid time off.
I literally told him, “I’m not going to be here on those days. If I still have a job when I get back, that’s nice. If I don’t, that’s okay too.” I’m not going to work at any job that thinks they own me like a slave. And guess what – when I came back, I did still have a job.
The issue is that they specifically forced us to use a program that calls them requests and clarifies that they can be denied for any reason. Verbal agreements aren’t valid. One time they even accepted my request through the program, then denied it a few days later because one of the managers wanted to take that day off and they didn’t want too few staff members there. You bet your ass I was “sick” that day.
Such a weird thing from a european perspective. Here in Germany, you as a worker are obligated to take your vacation days. It even can happen that your boss asks you to take your vacation if you forget to.
Yep! My boss gets nervous if I don’t plan out my days.
I wish it was like that, I even work for a German company, but don’t get treated quite as nice. I guess for American standards, and it’s low unfortunately, it’s a good company to work for.
I guess that’s cause our laws force companies to make their employees take the mandated pto else they’d get into trouble. But they can aparently get away with treating overseas workers worse
In the Netherlands you’re only obligated to take the days that your employer is mandated to give you (20 days per year). But most employers give more, and if you don’t take those up, you can often have them paid out or save them for later years.
I had 30 days for my jobs in Germany and the Netherlands. In some jobs you “earn” more with age or staying a certain amount of years in the company.
Can you get me a job at your company? Is your boss willing to fill out the paperwork to hire from outside the EU?
Depending on the state you live in, that may be illegal. Many states consider accrued PTO as part of your compensation and you must be paid at your hourly rate (or salary equivalent if necessary) upon leaving the company.
That’s one reason why companies started “unlimited” pto. It’s no longer part of your compensation so they no longer have to pay it out since how much is “unlimited” worth? That said it’s still not unlimited because you have responsibilities which if you don’t complete because you were on pto still counts against you.
Thank you for the explanation. But isn’t the phrasing in the meme totally soul-crushing?
You get 40 hours this year - all year - where you don’t have to work for us.
(uttered by some company suit)
seems to be the implication.
In Europe, even part-time workers’ time off is counted in “days off.” Even if the end result were the same, I just think it sounds a lot nicer for the employee. “Hey boss, I won’t be coming in for the next two weeks. Nah, make that three.”American here
It’s “better rights Than people”, not “better rights Then people”
🫡
Which state do you live in? It’s very illegal to not pay out unused PTO in many states.
Stupid Texas.
Oklahoma?
My supervisor always approves of my PTO days. She even tells me about how much I’ve accrued, and encourages me to use them of I’m going to lose them.
Paid Time Off, they are supposed to be used for Vacations, they normally get used for medical event coverage (Sick days) and local social outings.
How are there no class riots all over America? Having to use your vacation days for when you’re sick? That sounds stupid even from a capitalist perspective. People will come in sick and make mistakes or infect others. And they won’t be nearly as efficient without at least a few weeks of guaranteed vacation per year
The short version to your question is that American society is structured specifically to prevent that outcome, and to violently crack down whenever it dares spring up.
In Germany you can get your vacation days back if you get sick during your vacation.
Das kommt mir spanisch vor
Ich hab’s auch noch nie gemacht, geht aber rechtlich, wenn du dir von Arzt eine AU holst.
How to use PTO:
-
Text boss I’m not coming in today.
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Go back to bed.
-
I ALWAYS told any of my employees that if you got PTO denied outside of actual blackout times, it’d be ashame if you happened to be sick for those exact days you requested.
Ive done that. Sucked though because i didn’t have sick time left and ended up losing money that day instead of getting paid like i should have.
The concept of having limited sick days is crazy.
Yeah but in countries with near-unlimited sick days you’re usually required to bring a doctor’s note.
Since they said PTO, ili would expect that sick and vacation come out of the same pool.
I will be taking them here. If you don’t want me to I will consider your request.
Once you learn that the United States is one massive scam, all of the pieces fit into place.
Is 40 hours the entire entitlement for the year? I’ve heard that USians don’t get much leave, but just a week seems ridiculous. Or is that what they’re booking this time, that seems more reasonable. Still shouldn’t be an issue just to book a week off. I’d get it if they were trying to do a three week block or something.
Some jobs have zero pto! Its not required federally, and most states dont have regulations about it afaik.
How does that work? Do you just have to throw a sicky and use your sick pay if you want to go on holiday?
Assuming you get any or have any left, yeah. That or you can take unpaid time off. Though some places frown on that as well.
Someone else explained that PTO is combined paid company sick days and holiday allowance. I assumed it was just the US term for holiday allowance.
Some places do have it split out, so pto and sick days are seperate, just really heavily depends on the company because there aren’t any regulations about it.
Yes 40 for the year, and 40 isn’t even guaranteed. It is typically what you could earn over an entire year of full time work. A lot of jobs don’t even give you the hours up front, you earn it as you work.
Some don’t get any PTO. Zero.
If you have a shitty employer. 3-4 weeks is more common for an office job
It depends on a lot of factors. For software development I’ve had anywhere from 4 to 6 weeks per year. One job was 4 weeks of PTO (includes sick time) and they only had 6 holiday days per year. That job sucked.
Several of the software jobs I had offered “unlimited” PTO, where as long as your shit was done, you could take off as much as you liked. Of course, that meant that they didn’t have to pay out your remaining days when you left, but it was a good reason to stay.
I had one job where they switched to the unlimited PTO scam.
So PTO is combined sick pay and holiday? You don’t separate it?
So my holiday entitlement is 35 days, and my sick pay is 10 days so my equivalent PTO would be 9 weeks or 360 hours.
By holiday do you mean strictly vacation or does that include holiday days like Christmas and new years?
It includes public holiday days yeah. It’s about 6 weeks that I can take anytime.
Some employers do PTO others do separate vacation and sick. Generally I just count the combined days off – vacation, sick, and holidays when making a decision on an offer.
I’ve got 168 hrs of PTO and another 40 hrs sick leave.
A lot of that is from seniority (I’ve been at the company 10 years and was hired as a 5 year due to prior experience). But 40 hrs is on the low end of what you should expect, overall. Unless you’re an entry level hire, you should expect more.
I get 120 and wfh but I think I’ve reached privileged status.
I used to love when my boss would deny PTO. I told him straight up after a while that my PTO request was a polite notification that I will not be there during that time, and whether he solved that problem now or when it rolled around was up to him.
Unrelated, but I’m going be sick those days. Strange coincidence.
There are a lot of things wrong with my company, but we do have unlimited PTO. I’m in a place where I can just tell them I won’t be here, and it’s up to them to figure it out.
I’m about to start a job with unlimited PTO and I’m honestly unsure. I had 3 weeks at my last place. I’d like more, but at least I never felt judged using what I was allotted. They also never denied a request.
“Unlimited” feels like a trap. But I guess I’m doing that to myself? Idk, I’m probably gonna aim for 3ish weeks for my first year and see how it feels.
Honestly it depends on the company.
Damn. Less than 4 weeks/year would be illegal here (it’s also mandatory that an employee can take at least 2 weeks of that as a continuous single block, if they wish.) Employers are also not permitted to buy holiday allowance back (except when an employee leaves) and must roll any unused over year on year - which means employers are strongly motivated to have their staff actually take their holidays.
“Here” is, obviously, not the US…
My god damn team has a giant spreadsheet where all planned absences are logged, and shows how many people can still be out per week.
It’s awful and I hate it and literally 2/3rds of the teams have no real reason to not have overlapping holidays.
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The meme wasn’t stolen, it was rescued from the shackles of Reddit
Thanks for logging in so we can see this, I guess?
