I’ll say the obligatory “Trump’s a criminal and needs to be in prison,” and I mean it, but mostly I just think it’s cool that our page is big enough here to have a megathread.
Pretty sure if I shared a classified war plan I would get life in prison. Lock him up.
Not even sharing, if either of us had taken 1% of the documents Trump had taken and kept them in a publicly accessible area like Trump did, we’d be sitting in a prison cell awaiting trial. We wouldn’t be able to travel the country telling people why it’s “so unfair” that we were being prosecuted for taking classified documents.
Trump is right that he’s being treated differently than other people. Where he’s wrong is assuming “differently” means he’s being treated harsher than everyone else is treated. Instead, he’s being treated with the softest of kid gloves. He was given multiple chances to return the documents, chances that we likely wouldn’t have gotten. Had he returned everyone, he likely wouldn’t be facing charges in this case. Instead, he tried to keep the documents and impede the investigation. Now, he’s facing consequences for his actions while screaming that consequences are unfair for one such as himself.
I’m so over it tbh, they never will
If he isn’t pardoned I think he will spend the rest of his life on house arrest or in prison. These charges are serious, there’s undeniable evidence, and there’s about to be multiple venues so he can’t rely on a judge helping him in every case. Without a pardon his best outcome is being in a mar a lago prison until he dies.
But he’s likely to get a pardon before then.
Hes gonna get a sweetheart plee deal where hes inelligeble to run for office, payd a big fine, and never sees prison. The US already has displayed is had no idea how to punish people like him. They straight up dropped the chages on Matt Gaetz for diddling children, I have no hope for anything real happening to Trump.
Federal pardons issued by the president apply only to federal offenses; they do not apply to state or local offenses or private civil offenses. Federal pardons also do not apply to cases of impeachment. Pardons for state crimes are handled by governors or a state pardon board.
State charges don’t and will never affect presidents while they are in office. Alabama can’t just issue an arrest warrant for Biden. They would if they could. NY and/or GA state will have to wait until after he’s out of office to continue its judicial outcomes, if he wins.
And no senate is going to impeach trump as long as there is a Republican Party.
He won’t be pardoned of the Georgia charges. Not a federal court.
Yeah. My comment was made before GA charges were made.
His best case scenario is he gets elected in '24 and courts are mired in the unprecedented nature of what to do with a commander in chief that is a criminal. You’d think it’s simple, but it’s really not.
His second best case scenario is that another Republican wins in '24. Even in that case, I have a hard time envisioning how he goes from today where he’s like 15 pts ahead but his party acquiesces because of that even though they hate his fucking guts, and he also somehow loses the primary and someone who has enough tolerance for him and the political fallout from a pardon actually goes through with it.
And then there’s the problem that even if he’s pardoned from the federal crimes, it doesn’t extend to the state crimes.
Right now, the likely and not optimal scenario is that he’s a very obese nearly 80 year old incontinent man who hasn’t seen exercise or vegetable in decades has been mainlining diet coke and mcdonalds the entire time. There is a likelihood that he doesn’t see consequence because he doesn’t make it that far. This is also why I wouldn’t be very worried about '28.
Outside of that, there are public recordings with him virtually confessing to every one of these crimes. Hell, half of them were on TV. So, although I won’t be surprised if he somehow rides off into the sunset, it seems unlikely. But anyway, his actual chance at multiple pardons are basically 0.
Respectfully you’re delusional. Sorry to burst this bubble of yours but disabuse yourself of that dream, you’re only going to be disappointed.
i am not saying the “both sides” shit
but the reason they won’t prosecute him properly is because then they all will be prosecuted properly as well when they do crime which they are all doing
It’s one big circus. However, we’re the clowns cause we keep waiting for the main act to start.
Be careful what you wish for.
Some other extreme right-wing nutjob was imprisoned after a failed ‘coup’ about 100 years ago.That gave him a whole load of martyr rhetoric to play off.
At his age going to prison is very likely a lifetime sentence.
Hitler was a hell of a lot younger than Trump though. The shaved orange orangutan is running out of runway for that kind of shit. Hell, as are a lot of his supporters for that matter.
tbf - i dont think it was really youth he needed, it was probably as much the combination of lingering ww1 debt and the wall st crash .
Hopefully theres been stock market crashes recently that people are a bit more resilient and dont get so suggestible.
That gave him a whole load of martyr rhetoric to play off.
Only because they let him off easy. He should never have been let anywhere near a political position after his coup attempt. Same for Trump!
So Trump shouldn’t face consequences? He should be allowed to just get away with it to stop him becoming a martyr?
Yeah but he literate and wrote a book with ideas in it (albeit flawed).
He didn’t write shit, he dictated it to Hess. And it is a rambling mess.
If Trump decided to dictate a book to Guilani in jail it would probably have a lot in common with Mein Kampf.
You got me, I’ve never read it or even recall any excerpts from it, I just assume that he must have been more intelligent than Trump.
Trump has never written a book. He paid other people to write books and slap his name on the cover. I doubt he’s even read the books he claims to have written.
I was referring to Hitler being literate and having written a book.
You weren’t the supreme commander of the US armed forces …
What gets me is how lowbrow and petty all this is and yet so many people just act like it doesn’t exist. I mean, the universe served up the most obvious villain doing the worst job of criming that I’ve ever seen. I mean his antics are nearly indistinguishable from scooby doo, I’m expecting someone to have a mask pulled off, find out it’s trump who then somehow gets away with it all despite meddling from those kids.
I feel like the entire world has been pranking me specifically to see how long I can believe that my fellow humans are capable of believing this.
how long I can believe that my fellow humans are capable of believing this.
stop assuming they’re stupid and start realizing that they see in his corruption a chance to do a little bit of corruption of their own, maybe some political violence, all the absolute worst urges in them. they see in him the real liberty they’ve been seeking: the freedom to harm others and enrich themselves. they claim to believe, but really they’re just relying on the fact that you can’t actually go into their brains and prove that they don’t.
I know right? Everyone keeps calling him a mob boss, but I’d say he’s more the mob boss who’s so fucking stupid, he doesn’t know not to say the quiet part out loud.
The only occupation that could be worse would be a spy that’s too stupid to know not to say the quiet part out loud, so let’s be glad Trump wasn’t charged with… Ooooooh…
Yeah people have unrealistic expectations of villainy these days after hollywood set the bar so high with all their criminal mastermind tropes. I suppose it’s a good thing that most criminals are really dumb because as you said, half the country barely cares. If he’d been even remotely smart about it…
The WWE crowd took an interest in national politics. It was inevitable, and the results sadly predictable.
It’ll take a generation for them to get bored with it again and go away, but for now were stuck with them.
(Don’t look them in the eye, it just provokes them.)
Dude no. I’m a wrestling fan, I have friends who are wrestling fans, and trust me, absolutely none of us are buying this shit. Even as a wrestling storyline, this does not make sense.
Busted. You’re right. Full stop.
I’ll own the intellectualism in my position. In my locale, the people who host and invite me to their WWE PPV events are “truthy,” or I would not have made the accusations. The bias is mine.
So I’ll own that I made an out-class of WWE fans if you can agree that some of those fans fit the mold I described, and their position on it is not acceptable. My in-class are JUST as insufferable, and In will happily throw them under the same bus.
Thanks for challenging sloppy opinions online. 🍻
Oh for sure. This is probably an occasion where the venn diagram of groups I cross over with is a little sketch, but still lol
I predict a significant number would get bored when Trump either dies or ends up in prison, and can’t get his face in front of news cameras nearly so easily.
you’re underestimating how gay and self-aware wrestling is right now by some distance.
I’m not comfortable with the implied homophobia in your comment, but I don’t know what to do about it
I actually thought the implication was the opposite, as in the WWE is not nearly as conservative as the people who watch it.
that was almost it. for the WCW that I grew up with in the 80s and 90s it would have been exactly it. people tended to forget that wrestling is theater, the tyler durden effect takes hold and people who are (or aspire to be) like the characters these wrestlers play miss out on the fact that these are characters being played by actors. the audience wasn’t guaranteed to be 100% in on the joke.
nowadays everyone knows. kayfabe is permanently broken and everyone is having a fabulous time. CM Punk shows up with a sign that says “support trans youth”, Anthony Bowen has a storyline where one of the female wrestlers tries to seduce him only to be shut down by the crowd spontaneously (and very supportively) chanting “He’s gay”. There are dozens of out LGBTQ wrestlers across the major and minor promotions. Professional wrestling is very gay. It always has been, but only in the era of the smart mark have they started to be open about it and that openness has helped them find a shockingly deep well of support among the fans.
Megathread
16 comments
Come on, redditors, join us already. This is sad.
Not just you but everyone reading this. Be happy. We found a place that works for us. Why bitch and moan about what could be or what was?
NY Times text:
Federal prosecutors on Thursday added major accusations to an indictment charging former President Donald J. Trump with mishandling classified documents after he left office, presenting evidence that he told the property manager of Mar-a-Lago, his private club and residence in Florida, that he wanted security camera footage there to be deleted.
The new accusations were revealed in a superseding indictment that named the property manager, Carlos De Oliveira, as a new defendant in the case. He is scheduled to be arraigned in Miami on Monday.
The original indictment filed last month in the Southern District of Florida accused Mr. Trump of violating the Espionage Act by illegally holding on to 31 classified documents containing national defense information after he left office. It also charged Mr. Trump and Walt Nauta, one of his personal aides, with a conspiracy to obstruct the government’s repeated attempts to reclaim the classified material.
The revised indictment added three serious charges against Mr. Trump: attempting to “alter, destroy, mutilate, or conceal evidence”; inducing someone else to do so; and a new count under the Espionage Act related to a classified national security document that he showed to visitors at his golf club in Bedminster, N.J.
The updated indictment was released on the same day that Mr. Trump’s lawyers met in Washington with prosecutors in the office of the special counsel, Jack Smith, to discuss a so-called target letter that Mr. Trump received this month suggesting that he might soon face an indictment in a case related to his efforts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. It served as a powerful reminder that the documents investigation is ongoing, and could continue to yield additional evidence, new counts and even new defendants.
Prosecutors under Mr. Smith had been investigating Mr. De Oliveira for months, concerned, among other things, by his communications with an information technology expert at Mar-a-Lago, Yuscil Taveras, who oversaw the surveillance camera footage at the property.
That footage was central to Mr. Smith’s investigation into whether Mr. Nauta, at Mr. Trump’s request, had moved boxes in and out of a storage room at Mar-a-Lago to avoid complying with a federal subpoena for all classified documents in the former president’s possession. Many of those movements were caught on the surveillance camera footage.
The revised indictment said that in late June of last year, shortly after the government demanded the surveillance footage as part of its inquiry, Mr. Trump called Mr. De Oliveira and they spoke for 24 minutes.
Two days later, the indictment said, Mr. Nauta and Mr. De Oliveira “went to the security guard booth where surveillance video is displayed on monitors, walked with a flashlight through the tunnel where the storage room was located, and observed and pointed out surveillance cameras.”
A few days after that, Mr. De Oliveira went to see Mr. Taveras, who is identified in the indictment as Trump Employee 4, and took him to a small room known as an “audio closet.” There, the indictment said, the two men had a conversation that was meant to “remain between the two of them.”
It was then that Mr. De Oliveira told Mr. Taveras that “‘the boss’ wanted the server deleted,” the indictment said, referring to the computer server holding the security footage.
Mr. Taveras objected and said he did not know how to delete the server and did not think he had the right to do so, the indictment said. At that point, the indictment said, Mr. De Oliveira insisted again that “the boss” wanted the server deleted, asking, “What are we going to do?”
Two months later, after the F.B.I. descended on Mar-a-Lago with a search warrant and hauled away about 100 classified documents, people in Mr. Trump’s orbit appeared to be concerned about Mr. De Oliveira’s loyalties.
“Someone just wants to make sure Carlos is good,” the indictment quoted Mr. Nauta as saying to another Trump employee.
In response, the indictment said, that employee told Mr. Nauta that Mr. De Oliveira was “loyal” and “would not do anything to affect his relationship with Mr. Trump.” After the conversation, Mr. Trump — who during his 2016 presidential campaign often assailed his opponent, Hillary Clinton, for deleting material from her email server — called Mr. De Oliveira and said that he would get him a lawyer.
The revised indictment also charges Mr. De Oliveira with lying to federal investigators. It recounts an exchange in which he repeatedly denied seeing or knowing anything about boxes of documents at Mar-a-Lago, even though, the indictment said, he had personally observed and helped move them when they arrived.
Mr. De Oliveira’s lawyer, John Irving, declined to comment.
A statement attributed only to the Trump campaign called the new accusations a “desperate and flailing attempt” by the Justice Department to undercut Mr. Trump, the current front-runner for the Republican nomination to take on President Biden next year.
Mr. Trump and Mr. Nauta have both pleaded not guilty to the charges in the original indictment. Their case has been scheduled to go to trial in May.
The new charges lay out in detail efforts by Mr. Nauta to speak with Mr. De Oliveira about the security camera footage and to determine how long the footage was stored after the government sought to obtain it under a subpoena.
The indictment contains an additional charge related to a classified document — a battle plan related to attacking Iran — that Mr. Trump showed, during a meeting at his Bedminster golf club, to two people helping his former White House chief of staff Mark Meadows write a book.
The updated indictment provides specific dates during which Mr. Trump was in possession of the document — from Jan. 20, 2021, the day he left office, through Jan. 17, 2022, the date Mr. Trump turned over 15 boxes of presidential material to the National Archives. The specificity of the dates indicates that prosecutors have the document in question and the indictment describes it as a “presentation concerning military activity in a foreign country,” adding it was marked top secret.
The meeting at which Mr. Trump showed off the document was captured in an audio recording and Mr. Trump can be heard rustling paper and describing the document as “secret” and “sensitive.”
Still, he has tried to suggest that he never had a document in his hand and was simply blustering.
“There was no document,” Mr. Trump claimed to the Fox News host Bret Baier in a recent interview. “That was a massive amount of papers and everything else talking about Iran and other things. And it may have been held up or may not, but that was not a document. I didn’t have a document per se. There was nothing to declassify.”
The original indictment filed by Mr. Smith and his team in June came about two months after local prosecutors in New York filed more than 30 felony charges against Mr. Trump in a case connected to a hush money payment made to a porn star in advance of the 2016 election.
Mr. Trump remains under investigation by Mr. Smith’s office over his wide-ranging efforts to retain power after his election loss in 2020, and how those efforts led to the Jan. 6, 2021, assault on the Capitol by a pro-Trump mob. He is also being scrutinized for possible election interference by the district attorney’s office in Fulton County, Ga.
Chris Cameron and Charlie Savage contributed reporting.
Maggie Haberman is a senior political correspondent and the author of “Confidence Man: The Making of Donald Trump and the Breaking of America.” She was part of a team that won a Pulitzer Prize in 2018 for reporting on President Trump’s advisers and their connections to Russia. More about Maggie Haberman
Glenn Thrush covers the Department of Justice. He joined The Times in 2017 after working for Politico, Newsday, Bloomberg News, The New York Daily News, The Birmingham Post-Herald and City Limits. More about Glenn Thrush
A version of this article appears in print on July 28, 2023, Section A, Page 1 of the New York edition with the headline: U.S. Alleges Push At Trump’s Club To Erase Footage. Order Reprints | Today’s Paper | Subscribe
Non-paywall from The Guardian.
“Vorpious de liporius octo”, the coverup is worse than the crime.
Let’s hope if the crime isn’t enough that his attempts to cover it up are what takes him down.
Its a distraction for whats going on with hunter. If you dont think so Ive got a bridge to sell you
Hunter Biden is a private citizen. Never been elected to any office or served in any government role. Why should anyone ever care about anything he’s ever done? Why would anyone need to distract from any of that? These indictments are for crimes committed by a sitting president WHILE IN OFFICE! WHY is this so fkn hard to understand???
Ew.
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