In 4 things white people can do to start making the fediverse less toxic for Black people (DRAFT!) and its cross-posts, quite a few people said things like “maybe racism is a problem on Mastodon, but I don’t see it on Lemmy.” Of course, plenty of comments in the various threads were in fact examples of racism on Lemmy, so one takeaway is that at lot of people don’t see racism even when they’re looking at it. And helpful commenters pointed out some of the other patterns of racism on Lemmy. … but that wasn’t really the thrust of that discussion.
So I wanted to ask more generally, what are some of the examples you’ve seen of racism on Lemmy? Quotes and links are great, but also feel free just to describe examples or call out more general patterns!
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The whole point of the fediverse is that it’s distributed. There’s gonna be bigots. But they can be blocked, their instances can ban them, and then they can make their own instances which other instances can then defederate. That’s working as designed. In a perfect world, the bigoted instances will be a disconnected graph from the network of other instances.
You don’t think having a disconnected graph consisting of only bigots would lead to amplification and advancement of the bigotry?
Why would it? It seems like it would just be similar to the circlejerk forums they’ve have for decades, alienated from the mainstream and unable to normalize their ideas and recruit so easily.
As a POC I’d say Lemmy is way better than most similar sites but there’s still the prevalent sexism that always seems like the "acceptable casual bigotry" and I’m not a fan of that. The kind of "jokes" that guys mostly laugh at while women mostly roll their eyes at because the punchline is usually heavily reliant on sexism.
There’s a collection here,
Most people cannot see lemmygrad
Why is that?
It’s defederated from .world, the largest Lemmy instance.
Sounds like a .worlder problem
who mentioned a problem?
Lemmygrad being blocked is not a problem for anybody.
Thanks. I’m still learning how Lemmy works 😅
Because with all the suffering in the world, it is difficult to envision utopia.
.world censors left-wing instances
That place is infamous for hosting hate speech.
Being too left wing is not why Grad was deplatformed by everyone outside of the Marxist-Leninist circles.
So infamous that you can’t link a single example
Sorry I haven’t visited a hate site recently, you can wade through it if you’re really curious.
🤡
[citation needed]
Lemmy.world nor any other instance on the fedi can remove content on another instance without the consent of federation, even then those actions can be undone by the site admin.
.world defederating from you doesn’t mean censorship. People disagreeing with your opinion and opting not to see it is not censorship.
It’s the literal definition of censorship.
Actually censorship is a centralized process of editing information channels to ensure certain topics aren’t published through those channels.
Censorship is a step in a publication pipeline. At least traditionally.
Simply shutting down sources would be “suppression” and choosing not to look at certain things is “willful ignorance”.
Sorry if that seems too pedantic, but you invoked the concept of literalness.
False
Yeah, kind of. Moderation is tricky and moderating moderators is even worse. I got banned from !worldnews@lemmy.ml for being a “white moderate”. Was it censorship of non-leftists? No. I am a communist, not a moderate.
There is one rogue mod there banning people right, left and centre and that is a problem, but not one of plain censorship. I would rather say it is frankly the problem of having a bad mod who does not understand their role. I imagine the same happens on .world and other places, albeit under different guises.
Thanks for the pointer.
There used to be Wolfballs, a right-wing Lemmy instance. I didn’t browse much but there was definitely ample racism there.
If I remember correctly, the admin (a US Lolbertarian) finally closed it down, among other reasons, when they realized the resident nazis there were not just joking to troll da libs and actually believed the things they were saying about ‘jewish shapeshifters’. They wanted a free speech haven, and so they got the people we collectively told to shut up.
Good point, thanks. I seem to recall another one as well – although both were widely defederated so I suspect most people on those instances didn’t wind up seeing them.
Try checking out the comment section on pretty much any post mentoning Islam.
Thanks, a good suggestion!
Are you able and willing to link to a specific comment that you consider to be racist?
I did not see any racist comments for quite some time. But xenophobic comments were common on threads about Ukraine’s invasion.
The anti-French sentiment is also present here like in the whole English speaking web.
The French aren’t known for their hygiene so I am not surprised their river is filthy
From a post about an olympic triathlete who got sick: https://lemmy.ml/post/18887659
In Belgium: Tartare or Mayo. Andalouse for the gal, thanks In the UK: Salt and Vinegar In both cases: I will have to change seat if you plop yourself in front of me with your poor fries inundated by ketchup. Only the French do that, and it is a Casus Belli in my book.
From a post about dipping fries: https://lemmy.ml/post/18963222
The anti-French sentiment is also present here like in the whole English speaking web.
Frankly, I’m always going to be anti-French until ALL of their leech-like tentacles are severed and ejected from every Afrikan nation they’ve been hoovering the resources out of. I have no love for neocolonists, not the French, not the Israeli, and sure as shit not the Amerikan.
I do not understand how writing stuff like “French are dirty” helps with decolonization. I suppose by anti French you mean something else.
“If you hate a monk, you’ll even hate his robes.” Now whether or not that hate is warranted, well, global colonialism has made that a matter of subjectivity, but me, I’ll always thoroughly hate a settler. I hate the way that they walk, the way that they talk, I hate the way that they dress.
Then I think that this hate is not warranted. France’s army is leaving Africa. The French government want the end of Franc CFA because it is harming African development and they do not get anything of it anymore. Economic ties are very low. China and Russia are more influential in Africa nowadays. France is not the imperialist superpower it used to be
It sounds as if you’re using the atrocities of the French bourgeoisie as a way to excuse nationalist bigotry against a people. The French state is imperialist and colonist, the French citizens are mostly victims of capitalism, not the settlers.
Obviously it’s a different situation with French people overseas, but we’re not in that context.
If the citizens weren’t tacitly benefiting, in any way from the resource extraction of the bourgeoisie, maybe you’d have a point there; but since they do, you don’t
And yes, before you ask it, I feel the exact same way about Amerikans; and no, I have been far below poverty line all my life, so you’re not gonna find purchase there either. Just fuck off if you’re gonna go to bat for a settler before you waste any more of both of our time.
If the citizens weren’t tacitly benefiting, in any way from the resource extraction of the bourgeoisie, maybe you’d have a point there; but since they do, you don’t
Someone tacitly benefiting from a state’s imperialism doesn’t stop them simultaneously being victims of the absolute horror that is capitalism. That’s a big part of why even in the most exploitative regimes there are millions of anti-capitalists who engage in international solidarity. The capitalist class like to pretend there’s some national unity at play when they screw over the proletariat, but it’s all clearly bullshit.
Just fuck off if you’re gonna go to bat for a settler before you waste any more of both of our time.
I don’t bat for settlers. I’m publicly replying to your public reply, because it was sectarian in a way which is harmful to the international socialist movement. If you think this conversation is wasting your time, then just ignore it.
But xenophobic comments were common on threads about Ukraine’s invasion.
As in “fuck the Russians”? Because I feel that hating Russia is somewhat less based on prejudice than your other examples, and somewhat more on recent real world examples.
There were xenophobic comments towards Russians, Ukrainians and Americans in these posts.
Also, I don’t think people should insult the people of a country when they criticize its government.
True, but at one point as has gone so far you are complicit if you do nothing.
Has it gone so far yet? I don’t know, but it’s worth discussing imo.
I don’t have links because they get banned pretty quickly, but over the last week I’ve seen maybe 4 or 5 examples of lemmy users referencing “the race card” (derogatory) in response to others talking about systemic racist violence.
Thanks, it’s a great example, and good to hear they got banned quickly! It’s a great point that when moderators are proactive most people don’t see the posts so think there’s less racism than there actually is.
I follow your blog from time to time and I appreciate it. Just with your recent posts I realized you have an active Lemmy account.
I was going to continue this comment with “But I don’t get…”, then I stopped and read your blog post again and remembered rule #2.
I think I get what you are trying to say, it’s good that there are some mod tools to help with modding, but they’re not enough, and even if racism isn’t as visible on Lemmy, people targeted by racism still exist and get hurt. So I guess your point is be more proactive than reactive. People don’t get that, and even if they are well intentioned, they think of all the defederating and banning examples as “good enough”.
Early adopters are also overprotective with Lemmy and its small community, especially when a newcomer directly questions “how is racism in this community?”. They found their peaceful corner of the internet (relative to major social media platforms), they know it has its flaws, but since the beginning they had to defend to questions like “who owns the data?”, “what happens with deleted posts / comments”, “is defederatation effective”, “what about that Lemmygrad which is hosted by Lemmy developers”, can mods and admins become too powerful", “how long till this gets the same fate as Reddit”, etc.
I’m not defending the behaviour, just thinking of an explanation. Because frankly, I’m also surprised by the downvotes and backlash you received.
So I guess what I was trying to say is, “Hi Jon! Keep up the good work!”
Thanks, glad you appreciate it!
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I am sure there are instances I have forgotten, there is definitely a certain amount of bigotry, it’s not hard to find classism, sexism, and ableism as usual for the internet and I am sure I have come across racism too but I don’t remember any specifics.
Thanks!
I got tired of being unable to list examples when I said “I’ve seen X so much!” and then others said “Really? Where?”
So I started saving examples of the thing I wanted to later prove existed.
Maybe it’s just the handful of instances I follow, but I can’t recall anything. But I’ve become quite callused and thick skinned having Benn on the Internet sense the early 90’s and the wastelands of forums/chat rooms lol. Send help.
.world users every time they see a palestinian
Assuming you are from the USA what are your options really?
One option is to follow the lead of pro-Palestinian orgs working to end the genocide. You have more power than any other global citizen believe it or not.
honestly why do they leave reddit
It’s a whole lot of smug whites more than happy to talk over subjects-of-empire like this is still Reddit out here, split out between the likes of lemmy.world, sh.itjust.works, lemm.ee, jlai.lu, and feddit.de-- the last two are because they’re French and Germans respectively, though; no one’s expecting anything out of them but resource extraction (in the French case) and for them to go to bat for genocidal states lately (in the German case).
At least the aggrieved ashen lords don’t make a habit of coming to specifically demarcated Black-and-Indigenous spaces on the fediverse as much as they used to, ig.
I’m not black so I am sure I am not sensitive enough to it, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen any racism on here. On a slightly related note have experienced transphobia only two or three times in over a year, and they were quickly banned. I imagine it works the same way.
I have an account in beehaw too, and it’s usually the one that interacts with the world. It’s considerably different from a different instance.
“I’m not black but”. More than black folks experience racism, but at least it wasn’t “As a color blind white man”
It would be more helpful if you gave an example of the proper way of addressing the issue.
Thanks for the adrenaline spike.
I am priveleged not to experience racism as others do. As a consequence/therefore/ etc.
Yeah it sucks big time. I dated a foreign student once and people would shout crap out of their car and drive off. And when we ate at a restaurant I could have sworn that they made their food too salty to eat on purpose.
Personally I have sort of experienced a weaker version of it first hand when visiting Poland each time. People wouldn’t serve me at all, or charge ridiculous prices.
“person of color” or POC is the broad category of people who aren’t white.
🤔 Sounds wrong to me
Possibly because “colored” is and has been used as a slur? That was the connection my brain made when I first heard it and put me off, but many POCs use the term POC comfortably, so…?
Well, I am not from the US so I don’t have that connotation. It’s more that it puts it relative to white people. And white people also get discriminated, so it isn’t an inclusive term.
They do for sure. I didn’t say POC is shorthand for “people who are discriminated against”, just “people who aren’t white”.
Are you white?
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What’s wrong with a perfectly fine example of a joke? Black man told me this one FFS
