Couple of thoughts in response to this thread:
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I think the Borg, as a concept, somewhat falls apart when we considering that natural, biological systems are actually often perfect models for the efficiency that the Borg claim to strive for. And, to clarify, I’m not saying the concept falls apart from a doylist perspective - I think that the fact that Borg technology evolves independent of any particular intent and is highly automated to take the most efficient route to its endpoint kind of reveals the folly of the Borg, which would be super interesting to explore. They’re just recreating systems which already exist in nature, from a certain point of view.
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Considering the miracle of dermal regenerators and similar technology, I actually think Assimilation is highly reversible. Just still really traumatic.
PS - I’m not really sure on what the policy is on linking topics from the subreddit but I’m trying not to post on Reddit so.i guess this is my way of transitioning. Remove if not ok, I guess?
PS - I’m not really sure on what the policy is on linking topics from the subreddit but I’m trying not to post on Reddit so.i guess this is my way of transitioning. Remove if not ok, I guess?
We haven’t worked out any formal cross-posting policy between cDaystrom and rDaystrom, but what you have done here is definitely acceptable. We do not and never did have any intention of disrupting the standard goings on in rDaystrom (definitely check with the rDaystrom mod team before trying to crosspost anything from Lemmy to Reddit), but of course we’re more than happy to host offshoot discussions that started with a Reddit post here on Lemmy.
Thanks for the clarification
Biological systems are evolved to their habitat. Space travel is different. Also, we still need surgeries and joint replacement, cybernetic implants are merely augmentation to enhance communication or fighting or work efficiency.
Seven of Nine didn’t get both eyes back, one was a prosthetic.
But I’m definitely enjoying this topic.
I think we can use the term environment instead of habitat to cover more ground - The Borg or their precursors certainly created a different environment in the macro sense by living in spaceships, but their tech is still navigating systems -biological and otherwise - on a microscopic level (nanoprobes are developing/ functioning in a humanoid body in space just as on a planet - that’s their environment/ habitat)
I think the Borg, as a concept, somewhat falls apart when we considering that natural, biological systems are actually often perfect models for the efficiency that the Borg claim to strive for.
Do you want Khan? That’s how you get Khan!
The Borg are together, not the same. In their pursuit of perfection, they seek biological distinctiveness as much as they do efficiency.
I don’t think I would agree with the claim that “natural, biological systems are actually often perfect models for … efficiency.” Natural, biological systems tend to get the job done (natural selection at work), but often do so in bizare, highly inefficient ways.
For example, most of us have eyes. Our eyes generally do an extraordinarily good job absorbing reflected light and allow us to perceive an enormous amount of visual information regarding our surroundings. So far, so good.
Look a little deeper, though, and the structure of our eyeballs quickly shows the vestiges of it’s bogosort design process: vertibrate eyes all have a blind spot where the optic nerve blocks some incoming light from reaching our photoreceptor cells. We generally don’t notice this because we have two eyes, and our brains are pretty good at merging the images we get from each one to cover for whatever the other missed (including constructing some outright fabrications where needed). Essentially, the human eye is a camera with the power cord routed across the lens: an obviously idiotic design decision that persists because it wasn’t quite bad enough to be completely debilitating and could be mostly compensated for. Cephalopod eyeballs, which evolved independently of ours, do not have this particular weakness (although they do have their own suboptimal quirks).
It’s not hard to look at the bevy of ingenious yet plainly stupid constructs that evolution has created and decide that they fall well short of any idealized standard of “perfection.” Why should the Borg accept a visual sensor with such a glaring flaw, when they know they can do it better?
You might still disagree with this, but I guess the main thing I mean by efficiency in the case of biology is that natural systems seem to take the shortest route in response to stimuli. So perhaps there is a difference between optimization and efficiency in the case of the Borg, and I would say that an unintended consequence of their advanced tech is that it would start to behave like an organic system as they adapt to new circumstances.
I think there is a problem the Borg maybe haven’t acknowledged which is that they want an organized and optimized system, but progress or evolution means having a system which is good at responding to favorably to current conditions which may or may not exist in the future. Obviously the Borg are trying to also control their environment to be as predictable as possible, but they still encounter the unexpected (species 8472, for example) and have had some HUGE weak spots/ liabilities (Data can put a whole cube to sleep, their ships are subject to easily being infiltrated, etc). The Borg may believe in perfection, but I think they are on a fools errand.
You might still disagree with this, but I guess the main thing I mean by efficiency in the case of biology is that natural systems seem to take the shortest route in response to stimuli.
Not necessarily. Evolved systems take the first route available. If a more efficient route is encountered by chance, and proves to be enough of an advantage to win out over the original, then that is where it will continue. But it cannot easily account for situations where that fundamental strategy is no longer viable (particularly if the part is highly conserved), or plan ahead, taking a less favourable strategy for a better one later on.
For example, in mammals, the recurrent pharyngeal nerve is conserved from our fishy origins, looping around the aorta and back up. This was fine in the fish days, where that route was easier, due to the different internal structures, but it is no longer efficient, egregiously so for giraffes and humans, where it extends down the neck, only to go back up again
Since it is a highly conserved vital structure, it is extremely difficult, if not impossible for us to evolve a more efficient path for it to take, even though keeping it all inside of the head would be far more efficient. We might be able to evolve alternative uses for it, but it is a long and convoluted chain that we would need to develop in order to shorten it at all.
I’m not sure that some of those weaknesses of the Borg are really weaknesses.
Data can put a whole cube to sleep
Data had access to a privileged drone. Locutus was acting as a mouthpiece for the Borg, and was a special case, having a name, and having their knowledge be in active use by the Collective.
A conventional drone would likely be overridden by the rest of the Collective, and the Borg would be hard-pressed to allow most drones to go along without a fight.
their ships are subject to easily being infiltrated
That’s not really a weakness for the Borg. If you’re not trying to attack them, they don’t particularly care. They have nothing to hide, and the opportunity would allow them to study you just as much as you are studying them.
It’s much the same reason why they don’t use cloaking devices, or otherwise hide their presence. The intimidation factor is far more useful.
The Borg may believe in perfection, but I think they are on a fools errand.
They would be, if they were controlling all aspects of the environment, as the nature of the Borg makes internal development difficult. Individuality is not readily acknowledged, and the Borg do not actively try and improve themselves. They are almost entirely reliant on external stimuli to that end.
If the Borg were ever to win, then the galaxy/galactic cluster would stagnate, putting a stop to their ability to develop further, making it an undesirable goal. There is no winning for the Borg, even if they assimilated the entire supercluster, not without major changes to how they work.
The Borg may believe in perfection, but I think they are on a fools errand.
@T156@lemmy.world touched on this, but the whole point of the Borg’s search for perfection is that it’s an impossible task which will occupy them forever: a perpetual salve against boredom, for an entity which can (or at least thinks they can) trivially accomplish virtually any concrete task they attempt. I believe Seven even refers to this explicitly, although I am unable to find a quote.
From this perspective, stumbling into the Omega molecule was actually an unfortunate accident. Instead of the slow, inexorable march of incremental progress towards their nebulous goal, the Borg found something so “perfect” that they felt they actually could achieve “perfection” by harnessing it, and will pay virtually any price to get there. The is dangerous both because it risks leaving them without a purpose if they “succeed”, but also at great risk from the more conventional disasters that Omega particles are so prone to.
I think the Borg, as a concept, somewhat falls apart when we considering that natural, biological systems are actually often perfect models for the efficiency that the Borg claim to strive for. And, to clarify, I’m not saying the concept falls apart from a doylist perspective - I think that the fact that Borg technology evolves independent of any particular intent and is highly automated to take the most efficient route to its endpoint kind of reveals the folly of the Borg, which would be super interesting to explore. They’re just recreating systems which already exist in nature, from a certain point of view.
In Trek, at least, they seem to be less efficient, but more adaptable. A computer, even in Trek is faster, more responsive, but unless it is independently conscious, lacks the flexibility to work outside of its programming, occasionally in self-destructive ways.
This is particularly apparent when it comes to dealing with inherently-illogical things like emotions, which might cause the them to shut down permanently (Rayna and Lal), or go slightly mad (Lore, and M-5).
The Borg seem to be trying to get the best of both worlds, by trying to keep and cybernetically augment existing biological systems, which would ideally keep their adaptability, whilst adding the durability and rapid processing of cybernetics. It might work, but they’re held back by both limitations of their technology, and their nature as Borg.
Because the Collective does not recognise individuality, the only way that they can improve is via assimilation, and there aren’t very many species that would allow themselves to be assimilated by the Borg, whilst also being their technological superiors. They don’t really foster the kind of environment that would allow them to improve their own technology, absent any external pressure/input to do so.
Considering the miracle of dermal regenerators and similar technology, I actually think Assimilation is highly reversible. Just still really traumatic.
Although from what we see in Picard, that seems to be a Federation technology. Other species don’t have quite that advanced medicine, and the changes are rarely so surface-level. If First Contact is to be believed, there are deeper, underlying changes that may not be reversible, and in Voyager, ex-Borg drones that have been drones for long enough can’t be completely unassimilated. The cybernetic parts in their bodies are beyond even the Federation’s ability to safely remove, and are dependent on the other Borg hardware to function properly.
It might be possible to use a transporter to extract all of it at once, but the resulting shock might just kill them instantly, if it didn’t leave lethal wounds.
With regards to number 2 I had often wondered just what the big deal was about returning someone to pre-Borg state. I think we can see the allegory of addiction coming into play in these scenarios as well. It’s much easier for someone to “kick” being a Borg if they’ve only spent a little bit in the collective. The longer you spend in the collective the more of a psychological impact it has and therefore the trauma makes reversion to the pre-Borg state more challenging at the individual level.
