im convinced at this point that the “don’t vote or you support genocide” thing is a russian troll campaign
Oh It 100% is.
80% Russian campaign and 20% reaction to being lectured constantly by people who will forget that progressive votes are needed to beat Republicans when it comes time to pick a new candidate.
Progressive votes are already counted out. We know there will always be smug pseudo-intellectual “leftists” that will hold their vote as a threat to democracy if the don’t get their way with [current thing]. You do this every election year.
The problem is, you think people are going to give in to your demands when there is SO much more at stake than a war in a country you people couldn’t even locate on a map a year ago.
So no, you all can keep your votes. It’s too late to reason with trolls. The rest of us will be happy enough to not have to deal with you once you all disappear November 5th.
Been saying it for weeks. Nobody with half a brain would fall for that shit.
A vote against Harris is a vote against protecting America. That may not be true next election(fuck, I hope it’s not), but right here…right now…it’s true.
It will absolutely true next election. Democrats will keep undermining progressives and running weak and ineffective candidates until the dice fall badly and the fascists win. That’s how these cycles always go.
Every election will be more dangerous than the one before until elections stop. The next Trump will be far more capable than the rapist toddler we’re dealing with now.
yeah, we all know that. “the next trump” has been waiting in the wings since that guy got stabbed in ancient Rome. democracy requires all of us to complain and demonstrate.
You don’t need much of a brain to understand that voting and supporting criminals with blood on their hands is bad. You also don’t need to be too smart to understand that your choice isn’t limited to vote between two colors.
You also don’t need to be too smart to understand that your choice isn’t limited to vote between two colors.
I mean… you said it.
But I agree, only idiots believe that third parties are viable in our broken electoral saystem
The system is so broken that only an idiot could believe in it. Third parties are the lesser evil choice.
Nobody with half a brain would fall for that
it’s a lot of good people on the far left side of twitter
Where we need to take America doesn’t need extremists, of any kind.
I don’t have a problem when Americans dislike abortions. I do have a problem when they try to take the option away from Americans.
I don’t have a problem with people protesting civil rights violations. I do have a problem with Americans rioting and killing each other.
Extremism of any kind is toxic and has no place in a stable future. That’s because all extremism is born out of a strong emotional desire or need from the people.
IMO the only way out of this is to stomp out the conservative extremist fires and roll back the damage they’ve done. Only this will appease the extreme left enough for them to walk back from the line.
Progress forward is a balancing act that requires a soft touch. Unfortunately we had four years of a crude daft orange ogre that destroyed that balance.
As long as we make it through the next two months, we should be fine. Extremists can’t do anything against a mind they can’t manipulate. Just don’t fall for the emotional trap.
Stay calm, stay vigilant, stay in control.
You won’t do anything, centrist, that’s the point of being a centrist.
“America in 2016 was perfect until orange man ruined it, we simply need to return to 2016 and everything will be ok”
- the politics understander
American politics in 2016 wasn’t perfect, that’s why it’s been called the “Great American Experiment”.
But the world was a whole lot quieter in 2015. Wasn’t it?
Americans got along a lot better than they do today in 2015. Didn’t they?
My point was that we need to go back to that if we have any hope of moving forward.
Unfortunately, the Russian and Chinese governments have been trying to drive a wedge between the American public, and they’re succeeding. Their actions have fractured American conservative parties into useless, “do-nothings”. Now they’re trying to do the same thing to the left. Until now they’ve been unsuccessful.
The United States of America has peered into the abyss before, similar to how we are now. I’ll quote something that someone very wise said at that time that still rings true today.
A house divided against itself, cannot stand. I believe this government cannot endure permanently half slave and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved – I do not expect the house to fall – but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other.
As we stand upon the precipice, with baited breath, I hope for a future that my children can inherit.
This was reported, I’m not sure its rule breaking, but its weirdly aggressive.
The genocide will continue no matter who wins. The argument is dumb.
I’ve got a question for you… I’m sure you are familiar with the famous, “First They Came” sermon/poem/whatever by Martin Niemöller? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came_…
At what point during that poem would you consider a genocide underway? Would it be when they started murdering all of the communists? Or maybe after they eliminated all of the trade unionists?
Let’s extend that poem to include all of the categories of people that the Nazis killed:
They started with trans people, was it a genocide yet? How about after they started including homosexuals?
Maybe it becomes a genocide when they go after the mentally and physically disabled?
Or does it only become a genocide when they go after the Jews?
Obviously, the answer is all of the fucking above.
Guess what: Genocide very much can and does get worse. Much much worse. This concept that it is all or nothing is completely ahistorical and illogical.
Sure, but one side seems to be advocating for more of the same shittiness we’ve had for decades, and the other side for a final solution to the Palestinian problem. It’s not like the choices are equal.
Sounds like a hell of a system.
Campaign locally to change the system - we need more places to use preferential voting like ranked choice before third parties will matter.
Until that happens, you can either work within the system that does exist or decide that your feelings matter more than the results 🤷♂️
From my perspective, I am the one that cares about results more than feelings, and “blue no matter who” voters are the opposite. The results of democrat leadership have been a horror show of ghoulish support for genocide. The current administrations policies have directly resulted in tens of thousands of deaths (at least) in Gaza. I see a lot of democrats expressing feelings about how Biden and Kamala are actually good people, and are working hard towards a ceasefire. Let me know when to expect another result.
Yes, the system sucks, and we should do what we can to fix it.
What is also important is Order of Operations. It will be much harder (if not impossible) to effect any positive change on the systems that be if the orange orangutan wins the election, while those changes will be at least possible under the leadership of the blue candidate.
I like to think that people who are not able to figure this out are victims of republican/russian propaganda. To think otherwise would be both depressing and enraging and I have too much of my own shit going on to deal with any of that.
I don’t think you can end up anywhere good by bargaining with genocide. “Sucks” doesn’t even come close to describing such a system. The order of operations you’re talking about sounds to me like: 1- elect the more decorous monster 2- go back to ignoring all the suffering. I’ll definitely agree that it’s depressing, but it doesn’t require any foreign propaganda to be that.
That’s been my experience on Lemmy recently too. It feels like there is a push to disenfranchise to “teach them a lesson we dont support genocide by ensuring a somewhat more genocidal maniac gets in instead”.
I get the sentiment, but it ignores the two party system, and not voting does not fix that broken system, it ensures it. And I think the trolls know this too.
somewhat more genocidal maniac
Somewhat?
Several of my alt accounts have been banned across the fediverse for calling out such nans. I figure if my alts get banned for that, then I should block them from my main.
(if anyone takes offense to me having “several” alts, that’s because without using 3rd party apps you can’t categorize interests like reddit’s multis feature without just having multiple accounts with their own sub list.)
I’m* convinced
Are you aware that USA spend 10 times as much money on war and propaganda than russia does? The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. There sure is russian propaganda too around but keep in mind that is in the interest of the government to cover up its wrongdoing and keep trust among the public.
We fucking know, dude.
That’s why we’re voting for Harris. And no, I’m not going to explain why for the 1000th fucking time.
That’s why we’re voting for Harris.
You are voting for them because "The current government of USA is fueling a genocide in gaza and supporting the fascist israel government. "?
Because Harris is open to ceasefire pressure and Trump want’s Israel to ‘Finish the job’.
One’s hands aren’t morally clean if you don’t vote and Trump wins. Not voting is functionally equivalent to voting for whoever wins, and if he does win with a low turnout then those who didn’t vote are responsible for whatever happens.
I’m aware that the US government does propaganda too, yes. I have no idea what it has to do with this.
USA spend 10 times more money in war and propaganda than anyone else and they are being accused of supporting a genocide. Labeling as “russian trolls” these who are saying to not support the government or vote for criminals with blood on their hands sound more like the propaganda rather than people pointing the finger at war criminals.
And what about the “vote for genocide or you support genocide-plus!” posts?
That’s called logic. And a firm understanding of how things work. But also, that comes from people that know Harris will do what she is able to stop it once she’s elected, but needs to play the game to have a chance for that to happen.
But you all know this already. Don’t you?
How have you concocted such a fantasy? What sign has Harris given that she will deviate one iota from the current policy towards Israel? You just wish it to be so. Even if this were somehow true, it is almost worse! “No, you see, I have to support genocide now, so I can win all the pro genocide votes, and then as soon as I’ve won, I’ll betray the people that elected me by stopping the genocide.” Smell the logic, lol.
I’ve seen many: ‘feel free to vote 3rd party, its okay to not support a genocidal candidate’ very few ‘dont vote or you support genocide’ are you sure you’re reading peoples posts correctly?
Same thing. The fact that most of these accounts, very similar to your own, are new accounts speaks volumes.
It’s the same fucking thing, oh my god
The idea that not voting is some form of protest that has material consequences for the ruling class is ahistorical. It took centuries of struggle to attain universal suffrage. The people in power are perfectly happy to have only a small fraction of the demos exerting any political power at all; in fact this is how most civilizations have functioned for the past few thousand years.
Know what else is ahistorical? The idea that genocide = genocide = genocide, and that there aren’t levels to this.
These people don’t know or care about history.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.
Nah, they all have a political objective, and it doesn’t involve peace in the middle east. Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge to divide the left and get Trump elected.
I knew all these single issue fake leftists were full of shit when it was revealed that Trump has been sabotaging peace talks and they weren’t immediately outraged by that revelation.
Why would anyone even be surprised by that? We’re mad because Democrats see what’s happening between Trump and Netanyahu and are doing what Netanyahu wants anyway.
There is a lot more going on in the Middle East than any American citizen can understand. Voting for ANY candidate will not fix it. Even if we voted in a candidate that vehemently opposed Israel, nothing would change. Our military and I intelligence network there is dependent on a strong Israel.
Unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it except purge congress and get all anti Israel politicians. Good luck making that happen.
There is a lot more going on in the Middle East than any American citizen can understand.
“Oh, your feeble anti-genocide mind just can’t imagine the vastness of why we have to keep doing everything Netanyahu wants!”
Democracy is on the line. Our singleminded devotion to the right-wing government of a genocidal apartheid state is less important than preserving democracy itself. But not to Democrats.
Look we just have to work with that national socialist party just long enough to get rid of the dirty communists and get the money rolling again and then we can get rid of them.
Like what’s the worst that can happen while we give them some power?
They burn the Reichstag down? Ha.Us liberal conservatives have nothing to fear. We are the obvious choice anyways. Who else could they turn to?
Electoral politics is a fickle thing. If Harris makes a statement either way on Palestine, she will lose.
I just can’t seem to understand why nobody seems to get this.
If Harris makes a statement either way on Palestine, she will lose.
She has already made it clear that Biden’s policy regarding Gaza is her policy. She has taken sides on the issue already. You just like the side she took.
We can’t change course, we obviously have to hit that iceberg and then just hope for the best afterwards. What use would turning at all do. Honestly, I think hitting the iceberg isn’t even that bad of an idea. The other crazy person we would let behind the wheel would also drive us straight into the iceberg anyways but playing music to cover the screams of horror better.
Everyone screaming about the iceberg is just over reacting anyways. The true iceberg is the one after this one and all the other ones hiding out at sea we will get to after we finish smashing into this one.Why the fuck is everyone so afraid of change or trying things different.
“This is the way”, screw that, we aren’t caricatures.
💯
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Funny, but no. ;)
Trump has been sabotaging peace talks
This is pure horseshit. Netanyahu has been stringing Biden along for half his career. Biden has willingly turned a blind eye to Israeli war crimes going back 30 years.
Trying to deflect decades of failed US middle east policy - policy that Biden helped construct first as Senator, then as VP, and finally as President - and blame it on a single phone call Trump made to egg Netanyahu on is dishonest to the point of denialism.
Their objective is to use genocide as a political wedge
We’re doing “Human Shields” discourse again. It’s the Palestinian American’s fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.
Scratch a fucking liberal…
Trump has been sabotaging peace talks
This is pure horseshit.
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Trump, Netanyahu speak about Gaza hostage-ceasefire deal, Axios reports
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Trump says he told Netanyahu to end Gaza war but criticizes ceasefire call
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Trump signals support in call with Netanyahu: ‘Do what you have to do’
It’s the Palestinian American’s fault for not endorsing the genocide of their immediate friends and family.
Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move. Biden, Harris and other establishment liberals absolutely deserve to be relentlessly mocked and criticized (and frankly indicted) for cheerleading Israel’s genocide, but aiding in the political victory of someone twice as genocidal as them, and who also intends to end democracy and target his political opponents would be a bad move.
Chess moves is a great analogy. There is many situations in chess where you might win a figure but move yourself in a loosing position. The best chess players are those that can think the furthest ahead.
The political culture is embracing you to never think past the next election. Dont question the set up you are given. Dont think outside the box. Dont think how not punishing the supposed moral site of politics for genocide might make genocide accepted morals in the long run.
And then if brown people can be genocided in the Middle East, why not in Central America before they flee to the US? And once we are accustomed to that, what about the brown people already living in the US? Sure they speak Spanish instead of Arabic, but there is so awful many of them these days…
That is the longterm outset we see. As climate change will push for migration and refugee seeking beyond anythinf we can fathom these days and as the supposed moral sides of politics in white supremacist countries are embracing “solutions” that used to be of the fringes of the far right, we are descending into white supreme fascism.
So you think Trump would be better than Harris? Because that’s the only thing you get to vote on: Trump or Harris. A vote for neither is a vote for whoever has more votes - and we know that statistically republicans are less likely to vote third party (or not vote), so it most likely is a vote for Trump.
So you think Trump would be better than Harris?
no, we (speaking for myself and @selah here) don’t support genocidal candidates. stop making up stories in your head and read what people are telling you.
Because that’s the only thing you get to vote on: Trump or Harris.
incorrect there were 5 candidates on my ballot. this is a false choice that exists purely in your head. There are many paths to neutralizing trump and that don’t normalize genocide.
A vote for neither is a vote for whoever has more votes
incorrect, pure fiction. i suggest you spruce up on your basic addition and ratio math skills. What you mean to say is no vote or a vote for a 3rd party doesn’t help harris, you’re preferred candidate. yes. thereby putting her candidacy at risk. maybe she should adopt some policies to fix this.
The reason harris is swinging to the right is because the right wing doesn’t care about worker rights and many are also very disgusted with trump. They require no concessions by capital to garner votes; just a general disgust with trump. If trump wasnt running this wouldn’t be possible.
Hilariously I have no problem with this as a left wing voter. Why? because if the democrats can reliably peel off the few remaining moderate republicans we can finally split this big tent party and get a party that is dedicated to working class rights.
What you mean to say is no vote or a vote for a 3rd party doesn’t help harris, you’re preferred candidate. yes. thereby putting her candidacy at risk.
so you say that a no vote or 3rd party vote is a vote for trump, then. because those are the only 2 options. either trump or harris will be the next president of the united states. so, hurting harris means helping trump. you do get that, right?
The political culture is embracing you to never think past the next election.
I am absolutely thinking past the next election. I want to make sure, at any cost, that the person who has vowed to become a dictator on day one, deport millions of legal immigrants, terminate the constitution, and use the military against his political opponents does not win.
In other words, I am voting in this election to ensure that there is a next election.
Since the bad faith leftists seem adamant that genocide is genocide and that there are no shades of grey involved, then my support for either candidate hardly matters in that regard, so I’m not going to let it stand in the way of casting my vote to support other issues that I care about. Women’s right to bodily autonomy and the rule of law are two big ones in my book.
I’m sorry that innocent people are dying in Palestine in a senseless conflict, truly I am. I hope the people of Israel do their own part to hold their government responsible for these atrocities, because ultimately that’s what needs to happen. Israel could continue the war indefinitely even without U.S. support. We are not the lynchpin holding the Israel-Hamas war afloat, we’re just one cog in the machine.
Hey, just one human to another. That “Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move” just does absolufuckinglutely nothing and comes across as insulting/pompous on your part. You’re insulting someone’s vote as a “love letter” (great way to get someone to read and contemplate when you’re taking the meaning of the vote out of context). And your “chess move” isn’t as intelligent as you think, you’re in check and you only have one move.
Just one more fucking week to go and I can’t wait. It’s gonna be so great to see next week how Lemmy is just flooded with 3rd party initiatives, voting changes organization, donations to local and national 3rd party candidates, a heavy focus on anti-gerrymandering and securing voting rights. We’re not gonna continue to discuss how there’s no options and we can’t support other candidacies for at least 3 years…right? Everyone saying now is not the right time is gonna be super active next week with pushing to support the future parties… right?!
Hey, just one human to another. That “Voting isn’t a love letter, it’s a chess move” just does absolufuckinglutely nothing and comes across as insulting/pompous on your part.
Pretty sure that’s the intent.
lots of grace for trump and republicans on this issue from you, but little for democrats. Its known Netanyahu wants trump to win and has been trying to make the US as ugly as possible on this issue, the question is, why is Netanyahu playing you like a fiddle?
lots of grace for trump and republicans on this issue
If that’s how you’ve chosen to read it, there’s no reaching you.
Its how you wrote it. If there’s an accusation that trump and netanyahu are conspiring to make things worse you give trump and netanyahu grace here. If joe biden is attempting to make things worse you believe that accusation without proof.
We live in a world where multiple presidents have been elected while torching foreign negotiations during their campaign. Reagan notably prolonged the Iran hostage crisis AND began the Iran Contra scandal before he was ever president.
If you think that we should suppose an even worse person like trump is not negotioating on some even darker plan, you simply are simply offering him more grace than fucking reagan deserved. Reagan’s “Peace deal” killed a lot of fucking people.
I just don’t get how people are looking at Harris’ stance as being pro-genocide. Biden is the President and historically, foreign policy during the tenure of the President by the Vice President doesn’t veer too far off from the President. That said, Harris has absolutely called for investigation into the suffering of civilians in the conflict.
Congress sets the budgetary amount of aid to direct to Israel and the President distributes the money via their diplomatic channels. There are very few options for the President to just suspend funding, which Biden has done twice for weapons under the rules established within 10 USC § 362 (a)(1)
Of the amounts made available to the Department of Defense, none may be used for any training, equipment, or other assistance for a unit of a foreign security force if the Secretary of Defense has credible information that the unit has committed a gross violation of human rights.
But outside that, there’s very little the President can do once Congress approves funding and that funding has been signed into law. This is why an independent channel investigation is required and is exactly what Harris has called for. This would allow the the US Government to establish their own inquiry into the human abuses. This would give the required evidence to cancel funding under Title XII authority. But none of that can happen overnight. It’s not an easy path to override the will of Congress.
On the opposite side, Trump has indicated that he will absolutely turn a blind eye to the whole thing and allow Israel to determine solely the “best” course of action for their current conflict. Trump has literally stated in his rallies:
From the start, Harris has worked to tie Israel’s hand behind its back, demanding an immediate cease-fire, always demanding cease-fire
Trump would not see a cease-fire as a required condition for the on-going conflict.
Harris and Democrats historically have called for a two-state solution. Trump’s plan which has been broadly adopted by the Republican party in general would:
- Give Palestinians only about 15% of their original territory
- Jerusalem would become Israel’s undivided capitol, meaning all claims by the Palestinians to the eastern half of the city would be tossed out.
- Allow Palestinians to “achieve an independent state” via a means that is not clearly defined in the plan but indicated that Israel would have a final say in that process.
- “No Palestinians or Israelis will be uprooted from their homes” indicating that the territory that Israel has already colonized from their current conflict would become Israel’s.
- Would put Israel and Jordan on equal footing for the administration of al-Haram al-Sharif, which will absolutely ignite a conflict.
- Any territory allocated to Palestinians would have to undergo a four year “wait” period, but there’s no protections from Israel obtaining that territory if done so during conflict. So Israel could provoke someone to fight them and that would give them justification to take the land during this “four year wait period”.
Trump has all but given up completely on a two-state solution. Which means, he’s for a one state solution. And people are fooling themselves if they believe that Trump would seek a “peaceful” one state solution. He has told Netanyahu directly, “Just get it done quickly”. Now we can play a game as what manner is used to “get it done quickly” means, but only idiots are the one’s thinking that doesn’t give a tacit nod to ethic cleansing.
I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don’t think they are thinking at all. You have one solution that is long, stupid, and required because we are a nation of laws. And you have the other solution that is “fuck it, firebomb them all and call it done”. It is difficult to imagine that there are truly people this blind and ignorant to this reality. But yet, here we are.
The notion that we might get a 3rd party into office like twenty years from now if we start today, helps nobody if the people we’re trying to help are all eradicated over the next four years. Going down this “third road” only ensures an outcome where we are fifteen years too late to help.
It makes no sense, but have you considered the possibility that most people pushing that narrative are Russian assets trying to get Trump elected?
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I just have no idea what these people who think Harris is a bad idea for Palestinians are actually thinking. And really, I don’t think they are thinking at all.
They live in cloud cuckoo land where Biden/Harris can just tell Netanyahu “Fuck off and shove a grenade up your arse, you genocidal maniac” and that would actually work.
They believe in Schrodinger’s Jew: that Jews simultaneously control US politics and that US Presidents control Israel.
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Must be awesome to live such a privileged life that that’s the only thing you have to care about in this election cycle.
Women’s healthcare issues? LGBTQ rights? Interracial marriages? The US economy? The environment? Kids’ lives? Nah, you only care about Palestinian people. Well done you! Golf claps for you.
Most of Israel’s weapons come from the US. It’s very well possible for the US congress/government to say “no more weapons if you use them for agression”.
Biden tried just slowing weapon shipments earlier on and Rs and some Ds rammed a bill through saying nope, no slowdowns on these shipments allowed.
The Joe Biden administration also stated that Israel would receive “whatever it needs”. Which is pretty much what has happened so far.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
wow you just ignore that biden wanted to give them the weapons anyways. you see its a little thing called providing cover. Biden didn’t fight against it because he wanted to give isreal the weapons.
That bill went through with a veto-proof majority of all Rs and enough Dems.
Biden is a zionist, however, he’s also a politician who understands that the genocide was not and is not super favorable domestically. It’s also not a good look for the ceasefire negotiations to be as unsuccessful as they’ve been. If the opposition wasnt the orange turd this election could have easily gone R just like Reagan v Carter with Iranian hostage crisis.
Nooooo!!! Anything other than perfect support at all times for everything Netanyahu does is Trump support from Russia! Every lemmy genocide supporter says so!
In really it’s probably a mix that totals to around 90% of the people making these pronouncements are either bots, paid trolls from enemy nations, nihilists, or the equivalent. The remaining 10% probably have a genuine belief that voting for Harris makes them complicit in the genocide the Israeli government and its military are committing. They’re incorrect, on many levels, but that is probably their genuine belief.
We must always vote for the lesser evil because that’s what the real world is, from the most negative point of view: reducing evil and suffering. We know some of the things we’re doing today will be seen as evil by our progeny. We don’t know others.
A Harris administration will be the most likely to reduce the suffering of Palestinians, the most likely to force the Israeli government and military to end the genocide, and the most likely to make real strides toward middle east peace.
You come off as someone who had the protocols of the elders of Zion read to you in your sleep every night without your knowledge
In really it’s probably a mix that totals to around 90% of the people making these pronouncements are either bots, paid trolls from enemy nations, nihilists, or the equivalent.
All you’re missing is that one magic word
Your world view is pretty self defeating dont you think?
Whereas, and forgive me if I’m mistakenly assuming you’re advocating not voting for Harris, your worldview is just defeating. Every candidate but Harris will ensure that Palestinian suffering increases. Not voting will deny Harris a vote, therefore necessarily increase the odds of someone else winning and Palestinian suffering increasing. Palestinians are saying to vote for Harris. Votjng for a third party (all choices there, by the way, either actively endorse Trump (RFK Jr.) or are funded by Russia (Stein) so supports the genocide of Ukrainians) remove a vote for Harris and increase the odds of Palestinian suffering increasing. There is no scenario where if you’re an American citizen you can be a neutral bystander.
At this point, if you don’t vote for Harris, you’re voting for ethnic cleansing and genocide, quite possibly at home as well as abroad.
All I’m advocating is for people to vote for whoever fits their values best, whether thats third party, democrat, republican, or not voting at all if there really isnt any valid ones.
The problem is people who have the perspective that you vote against the worst candidate rather than for the best one, in my opinion.
The problem is people who have the perspective that you vote against the worst candidate rather than for the best one, in my opinion.
Have you somehow not heard of “first past the post”? The people who have that perspective, with regard to the US presidential race, have the correct perspective.
Third party votes don’t matter in FPTP. Until that changes, a vote for third party works in the Republican candidates favor, thanks to FPTP, plus the electoral college.
Sort of, its a self fulfilling perspective to believe the two party system is about picking the least worst of the two.
If the majority of people would vote for their best party/candidate then things would change from getting worse to getting better.
Im of the opinion peoples perspectives need to change before policy or regulation will, but I wouldnt say not to try and change it through election reform.
Every candidate but Harris will ensure that Palestinian suffering increases.
Harris has not said anything concrete about holding Israel back. Or stopping shipments.
Trump has affirmatively said he will ensure Israel is able to do whatever it wants.
Except she absolutely has.
She’s called for the investigations needed to legally stop the funding.
Because there’s a full legal process that needs to happen to overrule Congress on allocated funding.
Trump was impeached over fucking with funds allocated by Congress to a foreign government.
A Harris win means a push for a cease fire. Especially if Democrats win the House and Senate.
A Trump win on the other hand… Well. He’s actually on record as pro-genocide.
I’m torn on how to approach this, i’m left with a couple of options:
A) so Trump would somehow be even less self defeating?
B) are you suggesting we should all spontaneously rise up and overthrow the military industrial complex?
C) if you think this world view is self defeating then:
C.1) you owe some clarifying thoughts as to how you see a measured response to the existing democratic systems as self defeating
C.2) you appear to be making yourself out as someone who idealizes violence and oppression
C.3) you appear to be using contrarian language with the explicit purpose of dragging down the mood of the conversation. Quit that shit
D) Good ol’ not feeding the trolls.
Tell me more about myself please.
I’m trying to understand how this system works and came across this article from Al Jazeera which, if I’m reading it correctly, is saying that the US did determine gross human rights violations but the Biden administration is refusing to apply the Leahy Law. Doesn’t this mean that Biden does have the authority to stop sending military aid but isn’t, or am I misunderstanding something? Also, aside from Leahy Law why can’t he veto the military aid?
Oh man, this is a doozy. You aren’t wrong but I’ve got to get some sleep. To explain this is A LOT.
The thing is the Leahy Law doesn’t put the power directly in the President’s hands. It grants the vetting process to the Secretary of State. Which is a member of the cabinet of the President. Which I don’t know how familiar you are with how the Executive Office works or not. But Secretary of State Antony Blinken is the one who wields the power to deny Israel’s aid.
There’s Executive Orders (EO) that the President can give but there’s the whole “what if” Blinken quits given an EO and then we have to get the Senate involved which is currently 50-50 on Republicans and Democrats. Which that turns it even more complex and Senators can delay confirmation until after the election or if they’re really bitter, until next year. Which means that everything that requires a Secretary of State would get put on pause.
I get that everyone thinks the President gets to have the final say, but the President orders people around on EOs, which the various Secretaries can just quit if they don’t want to follow them, and then that kicks everything to the Senate. That’s kind of a built in protection in our system of Government to prevent a President becoming a dictator. If a President wants XYZ done and the Secretary thinks that’s bad, they quit and the Senate becomes involved potentially delaying the President forever.
There’s way more background on why Blinken has only stopped two aids and also because of classification reasons, not every stopping of aid can be published, unless the President does so since the President has unilateral authority on classification markings (except for anything related to the name of spies and nuclear bomb designs, that is one of the few things that requires both the President and Congress to sign off on, there’s a few other exceptions as well but I won’t go into them).
But anyways, Blinken is the one who can stop aid. The President could order him, but he could also quit, which means the Senate would get involved, and I can explain why all of that would be messy if you need me to.
why can’t he veto the military aid
The President only has veto power on bills that have passed both the House and the Senate. Once something becomes law, the President “has” to carry it out. There’s a ton of background on “Executive Discretion” and any time the President wants to exercise discretion, Congress can sue, which then brings the matter into the other branch, the Judicial. Plenty of States that would sign on, to a Congressional suit (which that’s a requirement for Congress to sue the President, at least one State has to join in).
So Biden could use Discretion to delay funding, and he’s done that quite a few times, but he can’t just outright NOT pay when the law requires him to do so. That discretion comes from a kind of EO called a “Reviewing Executive Order” and it requires a department to “review” ((insert whatever the topic is)). That’s a delay, but it isn’t a halt. The President has to follow the law as well. So if we have a law that says, “we provide $xxx to Israel’s Iron Dome”, we have to send that money to them at some point.
A lot of the funds that Israel is getting, is funding they secured before the Gaza invasion. There’s been recent upping of that funding that Congress has passed, but that’s been on things called Continuing Resolutions (CR). Republicans in the House (who are the ones who control what the US Budget is) have been using CRs to get choice things enacted. That’s because Republicans in the House have passed rules on how a budget may be formed in the House that are impossible to comply with (which that’s a whole long story). So if Democrats in the House refuse to accept the CRs the Republicans offer, the Government shuts down.
Anyways, that’s been a lot already. If you need me to clear anything up, let me know. But Harris likely wouldn’t have Blinken as Secretary of State, which would fix A WHOLE LOT. But I don’t know, because if the election isn’t kind to Democrats in the Senate and Republicans have a majority in the Senate, they could block Harris’ Sec. of State unless they specifically pledged to support Israel. Now they could absolutely lie about that, but then Congress could also impeach them, but that would cut off aid to Israel for some time as that’s not an easy process to impeach a secretary of state.
This comment needs no be posted and stickied everywhere. I mean everywhere. Thank you for your detailed response and explanation of how the executive works. I’m saving this comment.
If you want to keep up with daily events in the Executive, the Federal Register (Fed. Reg. or FR) cannot be beat. It contains all of the FOIA request, every public inspection requirement, CFR proposals, Executive Orders, Presidential Proclamations, and so forth.
If you want something more specific to rule making, you can find that here. Rule making makes a bit more sense when you think about it. Say Congress passes a law that says “build me a road between Texas and South Dakota”. The law will usually say who (department) is in charge of that and then that department will take the money and begin rule making. Rule making is basically laying out the path the road will take, what kind of materials will be used, what companies are allowed to bid, environmental guidelines, etc, etc ,etc… Once those rules have been made the who is going to do it is determined. Like Highways in this case, the Federal Government provides the money and the States are the ones who select the labor and make minor course corrections to the highway (like if it’s about to pass through a cemetery or something).
Rule making is also sometimes called regulation. Because the agency put in charge is regulating the action being done to ensure compliance with what they think the law is asking for, because Congress is very NOT detail oriented until they really want to be. Also with rule making, Congress can “ask” a department to come in and meet with them if Congress thinks some of the rules don’t mesh with what they were thinking.
There’s also override laws, which Congress passes like a normal law. These laws, remember the Constitution requires laws to be applied equally if they involve the public so these override laws are written as such so that they only apply to a executive department, specifically smack the department over the head and “corrects” where the rule making went wrong. These don’t happen often, but we did have one back in Trump days over the FCC. The FCC had made a new rule that required ISPs to get permission to sell customer data, and Congress plus then President Trump overrode the FCC, explicitly banning them from ever creating such a rule. It’s still open if the FTC could make such a rule. But that’s an example of an override of regulation.
Oh also my whole comment didn’t even touch on the Federal Vacancies Reform Act of 1998, which is what would happen if a Secretary quits. Very, very, very long story short. The Deputy Secretary automatically gets to become the “acting” Secretary BUT they cannot do any “exclusive actions”, which that Leahy rule is indeed an exclusive action. The “acting” Secretary can only maintain “status quo” until the Senate Confirms that the acting secretary is indeed the actual secretary. But an “acting” position can only last for 210 days, after which the office is then considered “vacant”, but none of that matters anymore because Congress uses “pro forma” sessions to prevent recessed appointments. But typically, if a position is “vacant” and Congress is not in Session, the President can make a recess appointment.
If you ask me, what we really need is an Amendment to the Constitution that provides the President a way to declare Congress as absent and if some threshold of Congress doesn’t become present, then the President can then call Congress not in Session. The whole “pro forma” sessions of Congress really needs to stop, like in a really bad way. Sort of like how Filibuster should return to requiring a person physically speak for the entire duration of the filibuster and must remain on topic.
Congress has gotten really soft on everything and that’s allowed them to permit a lot of bad faith actions in Congress to happen. It used to be that it was “gentleman’s agreement” that Congress would behave and act in good faith, but boy have we really fallen down on that since the 1980s.
Anyway, I’m rambling.
Dude. This is awesome. We need to make this into YouTube shorts or tik tok. Anything to get civic education out. We are extremely in need…
Not the person you replied to, but just wanted to say thank you for taking the time to write up such an informative answer. I learned quite a few things from it.
Hey, professor, where do I sign up for the next civics lecture?
I’ve been needing some better gov’t education since long before high school.
it’d be a poor course it empirically incorrect on a number of counts.
lol. entire wall of text predicated on a position that is easily filled without congressional confirmed. someone didn’t pay attention to trumps presidency at all.
but lets hit on the misconceptions you’re spouting.
Once something becomes law, the President “has” to carry it out
incorrect. Presidents have refused to enforce/carry out laws repeatedly throughout history. that’s one of the powers of the executive branch. its not explicit but there is no enforcement mechanism. Your assertion that congress can sue is 100% true. what you’re missing is that during that time the president can just not due what the law says and these things can take years. Secondly even if a judge blocks an EO the president can still do it the judge has no enforcement mechanism. You may have learned about this little system in grade school: The honor system. which is entirely useless. There are historical instance of this such as worcester v georgia. abraham lincoln did it w/ habeus corpus and more recently Franklin D. Roosevelt.
But Harris likely wouldn’t have Blinken as Secretary of State, which would fix A WHOLE LOT.
biden can easily deal with blinken, its called firing and assigning a temporary individual to the role. not like he has a lot of time left there’d be no time to confirm a new individual anyways. Blinken simply isn’t the issue, biden was until we got rid of him by not supporting him. Now Harris is, she’s the one who has committed to genocide at this point thats causing the issue not blinken.
You’re entire ‘civics’ lesson ignores the historical realities of the presidency and EOs. especially in light of the recent SCOTUS ruling on presidential powers which expanded this ability by conferring it judicial backing.
I just don’t get how people are looking at Harris’ stance as being pro-genocide.
Because they are, USA is currently fueling a genocide in gaza
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_support_for_Israel_in_the_Israel–Hamas_war
I just don’t get how people are looking at Harris’ stance as being pro-genocide.
“Now that you know I don’t listen to fuckall outside of my own bubble, sit down while I lecture you for several pages”
The two-state solution is a boondoggle.
There can only be a one state solution.
So make a choice: Israel or Palestine.
So make a choice: Israel or Palestine.
You say that like the choice hasn’t already been made without the input of the voters.
What should happen to Palestinians if Israel is chosen? What should happen to Israelis if Palestine is chosen?
I’m not who you replied to but I like the idea of a single new country for both Palestinians and Israelis. I think this would avoid the ethnostate issue.
Ultimately I think the only way forward is to aim for peaceful coexistence between the two groups.
Great idea! Maybe we could look to history to find the last time that Jews and Muslims lived peacefully together in a single state, and name the new country whatever that is.
Hmmm… Looks like in the 1900s there was a country called Palestine where Muslims and Jews live equally. Let’s get rid of Israel and Palestine, and replace them both with Palestine.
I think another main component of it would be religion being taken less seriously across the board.
It should be allowed to exist but it should be thought of more as superstition. Sort of like horoscopes or tarot cards.
Then it becomes pretty absurd to commit violence over it. I’m not really sure how to get to this point but there is technically room for both cultures.
This is the larger problem, in a nutshell. The fact that we have nations being led by people who believe in their own fairy tales, so much that they believe everybody else is inferior. This isn’t just a problem in Israel/Palestine, obviously, but having two of these groups so close to each other really puts a magnifying glass on the danger of non-secular governments. Israel literally believes it has the support of God itself, and its a powerful fuel to their genocide.
I think if we are to survive as a species, one of the humps we need to get over is the existence of all these fairy tales, and the division they create. The fairy tales may have been useful at one point in history, but they have long overstayed their welcome.
Judaism used to be a polytheistic religion, and Islam used to be Judaism. There is no law against polytheism in the Torah. The first commandment, “You shall have no other gods before Me”, allows for other gods who are revered less than Elohim. Judaism and Islam do not need to be violent religions. Putting violence in them was a choice that humans made.
The Nakba is not the result of Judaism. It is the result of men like Winston Churchill, who was an agnostic raised Christian. Generations of Jewish Israelis since then have allowed an outsider to define their religion, and tell them to be violent. This is not an issue of religion, it’s an issue of human politics.
I do agree however a country that is based on religious participation is fundamentally flawed. I dont think it holds up in that regard. But yes it does have a place in smaller community and in personal life, although I’d argue far less than is shown now.
There has never been a country called Palestine. What are you talking about?
There are more Arabs living in Israel than there are jews living in all the current Arab nations combined.
In other words : it’s not so simple to solve
Palestine,[i] officially the State of Palestine,[ii][e] is a country
Your comment was about 1900. Did we already move away from that? Specifics matter in the context of history and geopolitics. Or do we just not care about specifics?
Also, why don’t you address the full comment instead of snipping parts?
Isn’t the issue of a single country that the Palestinian population is much higher than the Israeli population, so if there were a single democracy, it would mean that Palestinians would basically be fully in charge?
I think this is why a federated or two state solution is often suggested. Both parties need at least some level of autonomy.
The idea is ultimately that the people mix and there is no real barrier between the two groups anyways. There should still be places to worship for everyone although I think religion needs to be taken less seriously all around as part of that. Religion creates division just like race does.
I think the state I’m envisioning is after the part you are talking about though. Its likely there will be a period of imbalance but that does not mean that the bigger group cannot be fair to the smaller one.
Isn’t the issue of a single country that the Palestinian population is much higher than the Israeli population, so if there were a single democracy, it would mean that Palestinians would basically be fully in charge?
Should we segregate America just because some minorities are outnumbered?
No, Gaza+ west bank are a little smaller than Israel in terms of population
Israel has made it clear that it wants to exterminate Palestinians, and is literally in the process of doing so right now.
Palestinians are not genocidal. They don’t want to exterminate Israelis. They just want to be able to go home and stop being killed and starved and tortured.
Israelis can assimilate into Palestine and stop trying to make a Jewish ethnostate. Palestine can be one multi-ethnic, multi-racial, multi-religious democracy.
Palestinians have entire documents and conferences on what to do with non-useful Jews. As for the useful ones, they will not be allowed to flee Palestine. Doctors and such will be prevented from emigrating.
There are no angels in this conflict. Both sides have desires for a genocide.
Certainly there are factions within Palestine that are genocidal. They’re not in charge of anything, though, and don’t represent the mainstream.
Meanwhile, the Israeli genicidiers control the government and are a mainstream cultural force.
They are not the same.
The conference was hosted by Hamas.
Hamas isn’t lead by the people it was lead by even a decade ago. Their more recent 2017 charter is pretty explicitly not genocidal, they are anti-Israeli and explicitly not anti-Jewish.
I say we find land for each of them someplace in the US, build infrastructure and housing, evacuate Jerusalem and bulldoze it.
The two-state solution is a boondoggle.
Better tell that to China, or do you know better than an AES state?
What do you think “critical support” means?
I think it’s one of those weasel words some leftists use so they can ignore their own hypocrisy while they moralize like the evangelical Christians they were raised as.
So you don’t know what it means.
Critical support means supporting AES countries against the capitalist hegemon despite still having criticisms of some of their decisions. I don’t have to think every single decision they make is perfect because I don’t moralize about my politics.
What you’re talking about is dogmatism, i.e. taking uncritical moral positions and then denouncing any deviation. Mao harshly criticized this in On Contradiction and On Practice.
No decision can ever be perfect, is my point.
taking uncritical moral positions and then denouncing any deviation
Lol I’ve been to Hexbear and old chapo chat, I have no idea how you can say this with a straight face.
Mao harshly criticized this in On Contradiction and On Practice.
Cool, was that before or after struggle sessions were implemented in China?
Okay, that’s about following the Party line and the strategy of democratic centralism. What the Party decides is what the membership must respect and uphold.
I am not a member of the Communist Party of China. They wouldn’t want me anyway lol
Harris and Bernie are both 100% pro genocide. Just at a slower pace than Trump, who will more explicitly fully support Iran war. Bernie is 100% correct that Trump is worse, but any position that declares Hamas as more evil than IDF, “Israel has a right to defend itself platitude”, is a pro genocide position, because to Israel, every child and hospital is a Hamas target.
Single-issue voters are ignorant to begin with, but failing to help stop another Trump presidency isn’t the moral high ground. If you’re in that group there’s no point polishing your halo, because you are shitting on it.
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding? I think that says a lot about you. None of it good.
I mean its likely trump will continue the genocide for people who managed to flee to the US by revoking the legal status of refugees given he seems to think the word “palestinian” means “terrorist”
The cruel calculus is that Netanyahu wants trump to win.
Do you hold your nose and vote Harris to deny Netanyahu another victory or do you roll over entirely for Netanyahu and let him have an assistant in genocide with Trump? What is the lesser of two evils here?
Netanyahu, at least, will be thrilled to hear palestinians are not voting for Kamala because of him.
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding?
Hey now. Vote for Kamala and you can get genocide, school privatization, and more underfunded climate disasters. You don’t have to choose.
Dems of 2024 have fully ingested the Republican platform of 2004. That’s why the Cheneys are campaigning for the Harris ticket.
This shit is so fucking dishonest. Go away.
And you are on here doing Netanyahu’s work of trying to get as many palestinians as possible killed by focusing your Ire on what, Kamala Harris? We all know Netanyahu wants trump to win. And we all know how trump sees even domestic US palestinians legally here. He thinks they’re terrorists. Do you think he won’t try to deport them? Or do you agree with Trump on that front?
Why are you here doing Netanyahu’s work for him? He can come on here himself and bitch about kamala, he doesn’t need you.
Human Shields rhetoric. You’re blaming the folks in the firing line for the actions of the ones pulling the trigger.
If/when Trump wins and he immediately deports all Palestinians, will you admit you were wrong? Or will you just double down (or are you just full of shit from the get-go)?
and he immediately deports all Palestinians
His biggest voting block? Doubtful.
I’m accusing you of doing exactly what Netanyahu would prefer that you do, no more, no less.
I’m accusing you
“Always go on the offense and blame the other guy for dying” is the IDF strategy, yes.
you’d be the one that knows it
So genocide is a single issue to you, like school vouchers or fema funding?
Hey now. Vote for Kamala and you can get genocide, school privatization, and more underfunded climate disasters. You don’t have to choose.
Dems of 2024 have fully ingested the Republican platform of 2004. That’s why the Cheneys are campaigning for the Harris ticket.
Hmmm… I swear I just saw this comment word-for-word a minute ago. Almost like it was copy/pasted.
Are you replying to LovableSidekick? The grandparent post didn’t mention genocide.
Hey look, Bernie right on it. Again.
You think he ever gets tired of being right all the time?
He probably gets tired of so many others being more popular and more incorrect.
We need a whole senate of inter generational Bernies.
Where where these people of moral conscience when Bernie had a shot?
it’s not like this shitshow sprung up overnight.
They voted for Hillary, because the party decided it was her turn and made everyone else drop out and endorse her.
That’s right. And then they conveniently forgot about the following midterms.
They most likely voted for bernie
Doubtful. They’re the kind of people who say that Bernie is a shitlib and controlled opposition.
IMHO it’s more like half of them. Bernie is a successful compromise between liberal and leftist voters.
Now Bernie is endorsing Harris, but if he was someone’s compromise, then that compromise isn’t necessarily transitive to a more centrist candidate.
I did, but most of his supporters did not follow through.
I really wouldn’t bet on it.
I guarantee you that if you polled these morons they’d know next to nothing about Israel, or Palestine, their respective histories, or the conflict, or the players, or foreign policy, or the USAs influence in the region.
These people got hooked on this conflict via tiktok, probably funded by Russian propaganda machines and are too stupid to realize it.
A truly black and white, good VS evil war is actually raging right now in Ukraine, yet these morons are silent on that one. I wonder why 🤔
A truly black and white, good VS evil war is actually raging right now in Ukraine, yet these morons are silent on that one. I wonder why 🤔
Because we’re not arming the bad guys in that one genius. Russia is also a nuclear power and most people still don’t think MAD is a good idea if you’re suggesting we should be advocating for open warfare against russia.
If you think the Israel conflict is a black and white affair then you are part of the moron group I’m talking about.
Ah, so that’s why you’re surprised some people have a hard time supporting a candidate that wants to allow the genocide to continue.
Impossible for people to have a conscience, it must be some sort of psyop.
Hey, they were having brunch.
Look, maybe they just don’t know how this will play out. By all means let them trade their vote away for teh feelz and directly condemn an entire countries residents to death.
Trust me bro, they care a ton about Palestine, they aren’t using civilian deaths to leverage any political bullshit I swear.
Too late, old geezer… Time to retire
Bernie has fallen off
Bernie owns your ass
Has he? Trump himself said he would have supported Israel even harder. I don’t usually believe him but in this case, I’m inclined.
Democrats dropped the ball on Israel’s annihilation of Gaza but Republicans, especially Trump, would have told to get it done faster and harder.
Trump is worse because he’s all about America first.
What he says and what he does are not the same thing. Trump is about Trump First, and everyone else never.
Well I’m not voting for him either.
“Socialists” reading this:
I don’t support Republicans that includes the chatgpt lady running as one. People told her what the deal was either change course or lose. She decided to embrace Dick Cheney and pledge her undying support for the country doing the Genocide. I still think people should vote and take what route they think will work. The whole Harris pitch has shifted to maybe she will change her mind down the road isn’t much better.
Are people really claiming Trump isn’t worse? I think it’s more that people think that Harris may be better than Trump (pretty low bar there), but still too bad to vote for. Voting for the lesser evil only goes so far. At some point the lesser evil is still too far from one’s own ideals that voting for them isn’t an option. Different people will obviously draw that line in different places and if I lived in the USA, I’d probably begrudgingly vote for Harris in the coming election.
Democrats basically slandering anyone who refuses to vote for their candidate as Trump supporters is fucking stupid and will hardly convince anyone to change their minds. Especially when it seems democrats have had nothing to offer the left other than “the other side is worse” for as far back as I can remember. If they want the left’s votes, they need to earn them.
I can’t speak for anyone else, but I don’t want people to get the wrong idea. Voting in FPTP is not the same as approval.
Exactly. If you keep playing the “vote blue no matter who” playbook, progressive change will never happen from within
